Some new spells for critique and comment (and use if you want)

[waddesdonbaz]

As a married father of two daughters under 4 in full time employment and currently labouring under the burden of finishing an MA dissertation, I don't have a lot of time for gaming of any sort. What time I do have tends to be dedicated to Flames of War table top miniature wargaming - this is due to an interest in the subject that I have as well as the existence of a good club in my area.

I have not rolled a die in anger in a table-top RPG sense in about 6 years, but I do pick up rule sets that interest me and fiddle about with the mechanics. This is my only option really since RPG groups are like hens teeth where I live (Buckinghamshire, neat Aylesbury) and the DFRPG is a pretty niche game even if I did find one I wanted to (and could find time to) play with.

Picked up the DFRPG (both books) this week and it has been distracting me from the thrice-cursed dissertation ever since. I have read all the published books at least once and really dig the setting. Since my hitherto-now favourite setting for an RPG was Shadowrun, this is not surprising. I quickly "rolled" up a few concepts, and have fully fleshed out a very powerful warden concentrating on earth magic (but no slouch at air and spirit either).

I won't bore you with the full backgrounds and character sheet (unless you want them - feel free to ask), but it is basically a very scholastic Wizard who, after fighting in WW2, spent the subsequent decades involved in archaeology (and the research into non-Western and "old" magic), and became pretty combat capable fighting off the things-that-men-were-not-meant-to-disturb that he came across. He refused two invitations to become a warder before the war, finally being drafted at around the same time as Harry did (no warden sword). He had been living in South Africa for a couple of decades, so probably around the Congo incident. Decided on "rolling" him after the war as a battered veteran and -12 refresh.

Anyhow, loved fleshing him out and building stuff, and then I came to the point where I wanted to outline his more commonly used spells - not just his rotes. Copied and altered a few from YS, but came up with a few that I either modified/adapted from the books or came up with myself. I have added a selection to this post - comments, criticism etc welcome. In fact, look at this as asking if I have gotten the magic system "down" through my reading. The character as written has superb discipline and great conviction. His evocation specialities are control (air +1, earth +2) and power (air +2, earth +3, spirit +1). He has a staff focus that gives him earth offensive control +1 and earth offensive power +1.

******

Air lance
Type: Air Attack
Shifts: 6
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Oppossed by: Target’s Athletics skills, magical blocks, or other determined in play
Effect: A faint blue ball of force launched from caster’s outstretched hand. Fantastic (+6) aim/attack, weapon 3, applies sticky aspect “knocked on their backside” to a single target.

Bringing Down the Houses
Type: Earth Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 8 or 10
Mental Stress: 1 or 3
Control: Discipline & staff
Duration: 4 exchanges
Opposed by: Determined in play, effectively building’s “endurance”.
Effect: Applies “Shaking Apart” sticky aspect to a single building. This applies a rolling +1 weapon attack per exchange (1st exchange – Weapon 1, 2nd exchange – Weapon 2 etc) dealing 10 physical stress to a building over the duration.
Variations: 10 shifts of power used to either widen effect to all buildings in a zone or for use on a single large building, although the 8 shift version can easily be used on part of a large building.

Knee Trembler
Type: Earth Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 8
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline & staff
Duration: 4 exchanges
Opposed by: Target’s Athletics Skill or other determined in play
Effect: Applies “Can’t Keep Their Footing” sticky aspect to everyone other than the caster in the zone.

Magnify Vision (Homage to Codex Alera)
Type: Air Maneuver
Shifts: 3
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Duration: 1 exchange
Effect: Applies “Telescopic Vision” sticky aspect to the caster. Use more shifts of power to extend duration.

Shatter
Type: Earth Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 4 to 7
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Duration: 1 exchange
Opposed by: Target’s effective endurance, determined in play
Effect: Applies “Brittle” sticky aspect to targeted inorganic matter and hits it with a weapon 1 – 4 attack.

******

I also wanted to run the thought of elemental evocations being used to temporarily get a single benefit from one of the inhuman physical powers. Not the benefit of the entire power, but just one of them, such as a "Strength of the Earth" spell giving the +2 damage to fists and weapon damage or bonus to Might checks from inhuman strength. Or "Speed of the Wind" giving the benefits of the inhuman speed in the form of either the initiative or athletics checks. 3 shifts of power for the effect, more to make it last multiple exchanges. What do you think?

[ARedthorn]

Erm. I'm gonna play devil's advocate a bit.
Splitting effects up isn't explicitly allowed... in fact, it's almost explicitly denied.

YS251:

Evocation's... effects are ultimately very simple, and can only do one of a few things: attack, block, maneuver, or counterspell.

Within the heading for attacks and the one for blocks, it mentions splitting shifts up among it's sub-groups... but that's once it's already been defined as an attack. Combining an attack and maneuver isn't allowed... and that throws out Air Lance, Bringing Down the Houses, and Shatter as written.

This is what you're going to hear from just about everyone else on the forum... I've had this argument before, so I thought I'd save them the time.
Moreover, I can't particularly argue with them (however much I'd like to... because I like the idea of splitting effects exactly as you've done, where appropriate), except on 2 points:

Special-Effect Attacks (YS326) is a kind of attack, and as such, should be available to spells within the Attack heading, and allows for things like tasers to work appropriately. Instead of the Weapon:rating (which you buy up normally, per attacks) going to stress, it goes into creating an aspect (just like a maneuver) and then the bonus damage from accuracy goes to stress (because being shot with a taser stuns you, but being shot in the face with a taser hurts).

Most ppl agree with me that this is an option- after all, it's still an attack option, and still straight-forward enough to be evocation-worthy (some of the time at least). It lets you do the maneuver+stress like you want to do, but it seems (based on prior threads) that you're stuck doing only as much stress as your accuracy bonus- You can't do Weapon:3 as a maneuver, Weapon:3 as stress AND bonus accuracy... your Weapon rating either goes 100% to damage, or 100% to special effect. (I... could argue the point, but it'd get convoluted fast... turning the attack into a spray attack, one part of which is special-effect and the other part direct damage... both targeting the same thing somehow-sorta).

The other option is on YS312-313... it refers to what you do with extra successes on a roll, and states that the player can use these extra shifts to do special effects, and that the most common example of it is extra stress from accuracy... emphasis on most common. This may be because it's the easiest, most straightforward, obvious choice- not because it's the only choice... maybe you can do other things with your accuracy bonus.
Like defining your own Overflow (YS214-215), but there are some restrictions.
1- it can't ever be on purpose... so it's not a planned part of your spell.
2- it has to be bonus shifts from your success on the roll- so it'd be best to low-ball your power to make sure you have PLENTY of control.
3- it can't be offensive, and has to be consistent with the roll that generated the extra shifts.
It's the 'non-offensive' rule that's the most restricting here. You can get all kinds of goodies, but it can't be an attack or offensive maneuver.


Re-tool Air Lance and Shatter as a Special-Effect attack or a raw attack, and you're golden there.
Bringing Down the Houses has another problem... damage over time's been hotly debated... a few people would like to see it, but even they can't come up with a satisfactory way to manage it. If I can dig up those threads, I'll link them.

Knee Trembler and Magnify Vision are perfect though.

As for your other effects... the problem is that Evocation's supposed to be too straightforward to pull this kind of thing off. Harry has a sidebar specifically asking if Evocation can be used to perform a Move action (using a stream of air to push you along), and he says yes- but it'd be in a straight line whether you liked it or not... possible, but only safe if you're in an open field with no trees.
What you're describing could be easily done (mostly) through low-level thaumaturgy though... given enough lore, you can perform some surprisingly strong off-the-cuff (no prep) rituals that substitute the spell for a skill roll. If your GM rules that no-prep means "There, it's done" and not just "There, I don't need to do research"... then it's still scene or even combat-useful. Otherwise, you possibly shave down cast time to scene/combat-useful by increasing the difficulty (going by the time chart) and get at least a small benefit.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

damage over time's been hotly debated... a few people would like to see it, but even they can't come up with a satisfactory way to manage it.

Just because it's appropriate and because I can, Orbius.  Love it or hate it, it's both RAW and cannon.  Of course it's also easily defeatable by putting yourself in a finger-in-the-hastily-declared-dust circle, so dots aren't that great anyway.

[Tedronai]

Knee Trembler and Magnify Vision are perfect though.

Knee Trembler affects a zone excluding the caster, which technically violates the rules, but it's probably not a big issue.
Magnify Vision refers to the resulting aspect as being 'sticky', when, for 3 shifts of power, it should be 'fragile'.  Unless you just want to bump its power up to 4 (and have it for 2 exchanges).

[sinker]

Bringing Down the Houses
Type: Earth Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 8 or 10
Mental Stress: 1 or 3
Control: Discipline & staff
Duration: 4 exchanges
Opposed by: Determined in play, effectively building’s “endurance”.
Effect: Applies “Shaking Apart” sticky aspect to a single building. This applies a rolling +1 weapon attack per exchange (1st exchange – Weapon 1, 2nd exchange – Weapon 2 etc) dealing 10 physical stress to a building over the duration.
Variations: 10 shifts of power used to either widen effect to all buildings in a zone or for use on a single large building, although the 8 shift version can easily be used on part of a large building.

Seems to me that if the damage is done to the building (and not people within the building) then this can be done better by shifting your focus away from the mechanical and towards the narrative. The building being damaged in such a minor way does nothing mechanically. You're trying to create a narrative effect of the building crumbling around you, so just say so. Simply stating that the spell creates the aspect, and then allowing it to be invoked/compelled to create whatever narrative effect that is appropriate for the story is the best way of handling this.

[Sanctaphrax]

I suggest that you use the rules for magical spray attacks when making a spell that does multiple things.

Notes about the boards:

-We have a subforum that might help you find a DFRPG group.
-There is a thread for custom spells on the Resources board.
-The Spare Character Concepts thread on the Resources board would make a good place for your Warden.

[waddesdonbaz]

Thanks for the info and feedback guys – exactly what I was looking for. I have spent some time digesting what you lot said and re-reading the magic/spell rules. Still on evocations and will try to tackle thaumaturgy later on.

I am posting here instead of the spell thread since I want to see if I have things “down” before adding to that thread and making a fool of myself. Once I have some more shiny magic stuff sorted out, I will write out the concept/character sheet and add it to the relevant thread – hey, someone might get use out of him. Thanks for the advice Sanctaphrax.

I don’t see any point re-hashing Air Lance and Shatter since, as has been stated they can be treated as bog-standard attack evocations. Instead, I would be tempted to just create a new air spell to knock people on their backsides – a more diffused compressed air effect that Air Lance. Sort of like a bean-bag shot in a shotgun.

*****

Wind Blast
Type: Air Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 6
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Oppossed by: Target’s Athletics skills, magical blocks, or other determined in play
Effect: A strong, concentrated gust of wind aimed at a single target. Fantastic (+6) to aim and attack, applies “Knocked Flat on their Backside” fragile Affect to the target.

*****

I also was thinking about what was said regards Knee Trembler, particularly the idea I had to make the caster immune to the effect. Clearly, this is against the rules. Here is the modified version alongside a new spell that should be cast prior to use of Knee Trembler to get the same benefit that I assumed in the original version, as well as being useful on its own merits.

*****

Knee Trembler
Type: Earth Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 8
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline & staff
Duration: 4 exchanges
Opposed by: Target’s Athletics Skill or other determined in play
Effect: Applies “Can’t Keep Their Footing” aspect to everyone in the zone.

Rooted
Type: Earth Defensive Maneuver
Shifts: 6
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Duration: 4 exchanges
Effect: Grants the caster “Hard to knock off his feet” aspect for the duration of the spell

*****

Here is the minimally altered Magnify Vision spell to bring it into accordance to what I intended for it to be in the bounds of the rules. Am I correct in interpreting the extended duration of a spell that applies a fragile aspect means that it can be tagged for free each round? This would be important for Rooted above as well.

Magnify Vision
Type: Air Maneuver
Shifts: 3
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Duration: 1 exchange
Effect: Applies “Telescopic Vision” fragile aspect to the caster. Use more shifts of power to extend duration.

*****

The DoT argument is an intriguing one – there is pretty clear DF canonical evidence for it working (acid attacks IIRC, among others). But I think in this case simply altering Bringing Down the Houses to applying a “Shaking Themselves Apart” aspect to the building/buildings with an extended duration and leaving it to the GM to use it is a narrative device is the way forward there – thanks Sinker.

I have also come up with a couple of new spells for this caster – let me know what you think.

*****

Tremorsense
Type: Earth Maneuver
Shifts: 5
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Duration: 1 exchange
Effect: Applies the “Knows Where Everyone is Located” fragile aspect in a single zone – as long as they are touching the ground. Can be extended with more shifts of power when fighting blind or against invisible targets.

Magnetic Disarmament
Type: Earth Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 5
Mental Stress: 1
Control: Discipline
Duration: 1 exchange
Opposed by: Target’s Might Skill or other determined in play
Effect: Superb (+5) Aim and Attack to tear a metallic weapon out of the hands of the holder and bring it to the hand of the caster. Easily expandable to disarm multiple targets.

*****

Back to the idea of spells that can mimic single benefits of the inhuman strength, speed and toughness powers – what is the consensus on that? It seems to me that a single effect from the power as a fragile aspect is not OP, but I am hardly in a position to speak with authority

Other than that, I am quite happy to have identified 3 separate attacks orientated around Earth magic now, which to be honest I had initially struggled with. As said, Shatter as an attack thematically only used against inorganic matter would work narratively. There is the eternally refined version of the gravity-concentration spell that Morgan and Harry both used, entitled Bone Smasher for my caster and delivering of a Weapon 8 attack with relative ease. And, after trawling the forums and reading stuff about a rail-gun idea, an Weapon 8 rail-gun type attack that uses 1’ Tungsten ball bearings that the caster carries in a pouch (or indeed any suitable ferrous material just lying around) entitled Apocalyptic Sling Shot.

I must say that this magic system is incredibly fun to work with thematically, with so many multiple ways of accomplishing the same effects, allowing a huge amount of the character’s magical paradigm and style to show through in the effects without relying purely on mechanics.

Thanks again for you time. Following feedback on this post, I will make final refinements (if any) and stick some of my spells on the relevant thread, as well as on the character sheet for the spare concepts thread.

[ARedthorn]

Pretty much all looks good.

The big argument against DoTs is that they provide casters with a lot of extra oomph for a very ill-defined cost (or not very much cost at all), and a LOT of extra stamina... when weak stamina is one of their only real weaknesses. We can all stand on common ground that casters are already hella powerful enough... they don't need more.
I'm not content to stop there though- I'd like to see DoTs added into the game, and if they break the game, I'd rather try to fix them so they don't than discard them.

As for your disarmament spell- to my understanding, disarming someone's typically done as a maneuver that applies "Disarmed" to the target (or targets)... so that's good there. It's labeled as a maneuver, but the text reads more like an attack... maybe just tack on the mention of an aspect and you're done.

Tremorsense seems more like thaumaturgy to me... a substitute sense. The closest anyone's ever done to evocation-based sensory enhancement was Elaine's Heightened Senses spell, but that's statted as a defensive block. If you're wanting to know where people are, sounds more like a skill roll to me, and that's thaum all the way.

Wind Blast can (if you want) also do damage as a Special-Effect attack (but only from the bonus damage due to accuracy)... this seems entirely appropriate to me- and may even be what you intended, but it needs to be noted in the spell that it does that.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Yeah, Tremorsense really should be thaum unless you want to make it much more limited.  Unknowable information is generally under the purview of thaumaturgy aside from seriously limited and justifiable cases. I mean technically you could use earth magic (biomancy) to heighten the sensitivity of the soles of your feet but you'd get a much more comprehensive result from making it a proper thaumaturgic spell.  You could stick it on an Enchanted Item or in a potion if you needed it to be quickly accessible.

[waddesdonbaz]

I see what you guys are saying - the concept of Tremorsense is a defensive maneuver though, even if it has outside of combat applications. It was initially conceptualised as a method of battlefield knowledge and combating veiled combatants, or fighting in pure darkness, which is why I thought of it as a defensive maneuver. It is an easy fit for an enchanted item though, as you said.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

It could still be used as an evo defensive maneuver but you'd be able to get a lot more mileage out of it as thaumaturgy putting a sticky aspect on yourself that you could use in pretty much any way you could think of.

[waddesdonbaz]

As someone who has not actually played the system, it seems to me that a low-fate point character like a wizard cant really benefit from sticky aspects all that much without the GM imposing some nasty interpretations of their aspects - or am I completely wrong here? Having never played, it seems like FP would be rather difficult to come by for a high refresh dependant character.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly why people are happy to have their character screwed with by the GM.  I've got a player running a wizard who has Do You Know How Much That Cost?! as an aspect and I regularly break, stain, and otherwise ruin his things at annoying times in exchange for a FP.

There's an art to picking aspects that can garner you plenty of FP without keeping you from playing the character the way you want to play him.  My advice, have one or two that will make the GM laugh.

[waddesdonbaz]

That is an awesome aspect. I suppose another way would be to take a trouble that is widely applicable to all sorts of situations.

Quick mechanics question abouy FP. I know that there is a point at which they refresh during play, and that you can "earn" more by your GM messing with you, but how long can those be "stored"? Do they disappear at the next "refresh"?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Anything you have above your adjusted refresh can be carried over, session to session, ad infinitum.  They don't expire.

Usually you don't get a refresh during play unless there is a significant amount of downtime in the storyline.  Personally, I like my games fast-paced enough that there are no downtimes long enough to justify a mid-session refresh.  It makes people pay more attention to their aspects.