Neutral Grounds - enforcement / repercussions?

[UmbraLux]

I think Becq covered it well!  It's all politics...and aspects. 

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Personally, I'd have some moderately heavy hitter from either Winter, the White Council, or the Red Court show up and stomp on him until he either concedes or is taken out.  Then I'd have him change an aspect to something reflecting the encounter.  Possibly toss him a point of debt to each signatory and the proprietor also.  Nobody said the TO had to be fatal.

Oh, and I'd have the proprietor ban him from the place too.  Just on general principles.

[Raidensparx]

Oh, and I'd have the proprietor ban him from the place too.  Just on general principles.

This.  For the ANG I've had in my game, I knew from the get-go that the punishment for breaking the accords would mean a permanent ban from ever coming back to that location again for that character, and also that the major powers in the area (in this game the White Council due to Wizard presence, the Red and White Court, as well as any fae running around) know this individual has broken the accords.  This would give them the Trouble Aspect "Marked", which meant until the individual or the faction he/she represented made some kind of major penance for the transgression, they're marked as an individual who broke the rules and doesn't follow them, and as such the other groups have no real obligation to follow the rules while interacting with them.  Which means no guarantee of safe parley when talking with other groups, no real ability to call in favors, and being killed by one of them wouldn't result in any consequence on their part.

Luckily, my players in one game at least in some form know about Neutral Ground, and know not to screw around with it.  And in the other game, one of the characters actually owned the ANG, so there was that extra pressure to not screw around with another player's stuff.

[sinker]

I always got the feeling that the organization was held responsible rather than the individual. When the accords have been broken in the novels it's always the faction that is setting up the recompense. From a mortal standpoint this makes sense, because what's to stop an organization from ordering someone to break the accords and then simply denying any involvement, but more importantly from a Fey standpoint one member can't act individually. What one does is always representative of what the greater organization wants.

Though I could understand the proprietor banning the individual simply because that's what they might do.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Yeah, that's why I included the Red Court.  They're the faction most likely to be giving out a proper smackdown for one of their members violating ANG, unless it was a Court approved violation.

[VVolf]

In your particular case, my suggestion would be to find a suitably fancy font and print out a nice card with the following written on it:
o Violator of the Unseelie Accords
Then show the card to the player and tell him that this new aspect will be his should he follow through with the attack -- permanently, until satisfaction has been had by any aggrieved parties.  Give him the choice, much the same as if he was violating the Laws of Magic, but leave the decision to the player.

Should he accept the aspect, you now have a new plot hook to compel whenever you deem it appropriate.  For example, any time the character might otherwise be protected by his faction, or whenever an entity might otherwise be reluctant to attack the player due to percieved protection by the Accords or the player's former faction.

If this is something which the character has already done, then perhaps have the local winter court drake drop by to inquire how he intends to pay off the grievous debt he owes to the Unseelie court for violation of their accords...  with a heavy implication the drake intends to take a down-payment of his arse and work his way up. Here the PC could attempt to bolt, likely getting banned from building, and live with his new Violator aspect... or he could opt out of that aspect by making an agreement with the winter court... which I'm sure there's no way for that to come back and bite him... none what so ever...  *cackles maniacally*

After all, this is the fae... deals, balance, and favors.

[VVolf]

To provide a bit more detail: I'm using a transplanted copy of the Neutral Grounds coffee shop from the Baltimore example city.  The PC has decided that he "needs" talented allies, and that the obvious way to acquire such is by using the addictive saliva power to spike drinks of various minor talents at said coffee shop.

Just for additional clarification, if he is buying the drinks, spiking them, offering them to people, and they accept, then I don't believe there's any violation. If he's spiking the drinks the patrons ordered themselves then he's in violation against the owner of the establishment and against those who's drinks he spiked.

[Raidensparx]

Just for additional clarification, if he is buying the drinks, spiking them, offering them to people, and they accept, then I don't believe there's any violation. If he's spiking the drinks the patrons ordered themselves then he's in violation against the owner of the establishment and against those who's drinks he spiked.

No, it's still a pretty major violation.  That scenario would only count if the targets were ALREADY AWARE of their drinks being drugged, and they drank it anyway.  What he's doing above is still breaking the neutrality of the place by secretly doing injury to those who went to the place expecting a safe haven.

[Tedronai]

Unless he pulls the same 'recreational' excuse that Bianca employed, saying something along the lines of, 'Here, this one's got a little extra kick; I think you'll like it,' as he hands his victim the drink.  At which point he can, narrowly, claim that he informed them of the intoxicating effects of the beverage, and thus that they accepted it 'knowingly'.

[Raidensparx]

Unless he pulls the same 'recreational' excuse that Bianca employed, saying something along the lines of, 'Here, this one's got a little extra kick; I think you'll like it,' as he hands his victim the drink.  At which point he can, narrowly, claim that he informed them of the intoxicating effects of the beverage, and thus that they accepted it 'knowingly'.

Depending on who runs the neutral ground, as well as who's the one drugging people, pretty sure that wouldn't fly either.  If groups could get away with stuff like that, it'd leave way too much room open for factions to screw around with it.  And from what we've seen, the factions do not screw around with Accorded Neutral Ground.  Hell,

(click to show/hide)

Harry had to confront Count Ortega, a Red Court who was completely willing to cheat in a duel later on, and they met at Mac's beforehand

, and even HE knew better than to try and pull anything on neutral ground.  And you know if he could have gotten away with it, he would have.

They take that stuff seriously.

[Tedronai]

I'm pretty sure Neutral Ground does not provide more protection than the Laws of Hospitality.  Supernatural nations tend to take those rather seriously, too.  And with all of those guests (everything from the White Court's black sheep to a Dragon) at Bianca's little shindig, not one of them raised a formal complaint about an unannounced 'recreational drugging' of the beverages.

As for the person 'running' the Neutral Ground, they can declare you unwelcome in their establishment entirely independently of any breach of the Accords.  And any breach of the Accords is entirely independent of what they deem acceptable in their establishment.
And that's even assuming that someone in-the-know 'runs' the Neutral Ground, and that it's not merely Central Park, or a local sporting stadium with an oblivious management.

[Raidensparx]

I'm pretty sure Neutral Ground does not provide more protection than the Laws of Hospitality.  Supernatural nations tend to take those rather seriously, too.  And with all of those guests (everything from the White Court's black sheep to a Dragon) at Bianca's little shindig, not one of them raised a formal complaint about an unannounced 'recreational drugging' of the beverages.

As for the person 'running' the Neutral Ground, they can declare you unwelcome in their establishment entirely independently of any breach of the Accords.  And any breach of the Accords is entirely independent of what they deem acceptable in their establishment.
And that's even assuming that someone in-the-know 'runs' the Neutral Ground, and that it's not merely Central Park, or a local sporting stadium with an oblivious management.

I'm fairly certain Bianca's place was not Accorded Neutral Ground.  It was her place, which meant it was her territory.  But the accords never officially made it a neutral ground.  As such, there was really nothing the accords could do that would keep her from doing anything, since everyone technically had made a choice to go there.

Accorded Neutral Ground means that everyone agrees "we do not pull any shit there, ever, and expect serious repercussions if we do".

[ways and means]

Duke Ortega didn't attack Harry before hand because that would undermine the purpose of the action in the first place (plot stuff), as for othering drugged drinks as long as you don't lie and say they are not drugged you are OK, it was the choice of whoever drinks them to drink them and you were just making the drinks taste better with your drug. Remember there is no spirit of the law.   

[ARedthorn]

I've seen a few quotes saying that the accords are enforced by the offended party...

Which is a little like saying that if North Korea invades South Korea, the UN will tell South Korea to defend themselves.
The accords are defended by ALL parties, not just the offended one, or they're worthless.

Mab in particular is the biggest threat, since she wrote them. That said, if you're part of a signing party, does that mean you are, by inclusion, part of a binding contract with Mab?

Cause... then enforcement becomes a bit... more. More severe, more terrifying, more swift, more... everything.

[Tedronai]

I'm fairly certain Bianca's place was not Accorded Neutral Ground.  It was her place, which meant it was her territory.  But the accords never officially made it a neutral ground.  As such, there was really nothing the accords could do that would keep her from doing anything, since everyone technically had made a choice to go there.

Accorded Neutral Ground means that everyone agrees "we do not pull any shit there, ever, and expect serious repercussions if we do".

It didn't need to be Accorded Neutral Ground.  The guests were there as Guests under the Laws of Hospitality.  That means that, not only was Bianca not allowed to 'pull any shit' against them, but furthermore, would have been required to DEFEND them against anyone else attempting to 'pull any shit'.
And not ONE of the emissaries from [how many Accord signatories?, including Lea representing Mab] made even a whiff of complaint.
Which can only mean that 'recreational drugging' didn't count as 'shit being pulled'.