New Template, Plus Some Rambling About Optimization

[Sanctaphrax]

So, I was thinking about ways to make powerful characters in the DFRPG recently. I do this a lot, it's nothing unusual.

I thought about the combination of Blood Drinker and a high level of Recovery, and about characters that could use it. Other than a ghoul variant or a unique monster, nothing much came to mind. My marvelous mechanical idea was being thwarted by flavour problems.

So I got to thinking about Templates and character concepts and the restrictions that they impose on characters.

A big part of what makes the DFPRG such a good game for a powergamer is the fact that there are a number of ways to make a powerful combat character. All of the following can make you into a killing machine:

A pile of Fate Points combined with appropriate aspects
As many attack and defense-boosting stunts and powers as possible
A bunch of "building block" physical powers
Refined Evocation
Refined Crafting
Incite Emotion

Most of those approaches are easily possible with the standard templates and concepts.

But the "as many attack and defense-boosting powers and stunts as possible" and "incite emotion" approaches require custom templates and original character ideas. This means that characters built to use them will often look "twinky" and poorly fleshed out.

The obvious solution is to make templates with strong flavour that accommodate these character types. I have no ideas for "incite emotion", but I do have a one that I think is good for "as many attack and defense-boosting powers and stunts as possible". One take on it, anyway.

See next post for the Bloodthirsty Weapon Bearer.

[Sanctaphrax]

BLOODTHIRSTY WEAPON BEARER

There are many legends of cursed swords, possessed axes, evil guns, and other weapons that dominate their bearers and drive them to kill. Like most legends, they are based in fact.

Sometimes, when a weapon is used to kill too many people, it takes on a life of its own from the pieces of the ones it has taken. It becomes partially sentient and entirely magical. It invariably wants to do more killing.

These weapons are called Bloodthirsty Weapons. Most people who wield them become nothing more than slaves to their weapons, killing endlessly to appease the thirst of their master. When they die, their indestructible weapon simply sits and waits for a new bearer.

But with a strong enough will, it is possible to master a Bloodthirsty Weapon. Someone who does so can use it for a good cause, if he or she so chooses.

Musts: A Bloodthirsty Weapon Bearer must have a high concept that references their weapon (eg. SLAVE TO THE DEMON SWORD or SOLDIER WITH AN EVIL GUN). This aspect may be compelled to represent the influence of their weapon, and is linked to their Item Of Power power. Speaking of which, a Bloodthirsty Weapon Bearer must bear a Bloodthirsty Weapon. A Bloodthirsty Weapon is always an Item Of Power with the following abilities:

[-1] True Aim
[-1] Blood Drinker
[-1] Demonic Co-Pilot

By default, Blood Drinker does not work at range. It also normally requires its user to consume the blood of his target himself. The version used by Bloodthirsty Weapon Bearers is slightly different in that the weapon is what consumes the blood. It does not function if the character makes an attack with another weapon, but it does work against distant targets if those targets are hurt with the Bloodthirsty Weapon or a projectile from it.

Options: A Bloodthirsty Weapon Bearer may take a variety of powers, but all of them must be linked to his Bloodthirsty Weapon. Strength, Toughness, Speed, and Recovery are options, and if taken they should be linked to an appropriate Feeding Dependency. Sacred Guardian is an option, if you want to admit that it exists. Living Dead is an option, if the magic of the weapon keeps the wielder from dying. The GM and player should determine what happens if the weapon is lost when Living Dead is taken. Beast Change and Human Form are options, if the personality of the weapon sometimes takes over the wielder.

Important Skills: Weapons or Guns, first and foremost. Discipline is also important. Conviction and other combat skills are secondary, but still worth taking.

Minimum Refresh Cost: -1

Examples: None, but I may yet write some.

PS: Not too happy with the clause about Blood Drinker at range. Considering just ditching the option of using a gun in order to avoid it. Thoughts?

[EdgeOfDreams]

Interesting template. Not sure it's something I'd personally want to use, but if you like it, cool.

Regarding the flexibility of templates, I have two comments.

First, to paraphrase a pirate, I see templates as "more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."

Secondly, there are two templates, one explicitly in the book, and one indirectly referenced, that can be used to justify almost any combination of powers - Emissary of Power and Scion.  I will offer an example of each:

A friend of mine is playing a monster-hunting swordsman named Roland who wields Durendal, the legendary sword (this was written before Durendal was ever mentioned in the actual Dresden books).  He is modeled as an Emissary of Power, with Marked by Power, Supernatural Toughness, Inhuman Strength, and Inhuman Recovery (the last three all discounted by the Item of Power rebate, as they come from the sword).  The sword, Durendal,  is sentient and chose Roland as a worthy bearer.

Recently, I was told by my GM that I should write up a new character to play, as my last one has been mind-raped a few too many times (long story).  I was flipping through the books and decided that both Modular Abilities and Glamours looked like fun powers.  A changeling would be the obvious choice if I wanted Glamours, but Modular Abilities is harder to justify, especially as I wanted to take it without True Shapeshifting or Beast Change.  Eventually, I settled on being a Scion of a Rakshasa, a sort of Hindu demon known for illusion and shapeshifting powers.

I feel that, when playing in the standard Dresden setting, the default list of templates covers 95% of what you might want to play.  For the remaining 5%, I don't think a template is actually needed, so long as GM and player can agree on reasonable aspect, stunt, and power musts, options, and limits.

The only template that I wish they would have put in is "Wielder of an Item of Power" - a catch-all template for characters whose only source of supernatural abilities is an item of power.

[toturi]

A big part of what makes the DFPRG such a good game for a powergamer is the fact that there are a number of ways to make a powerful combat character.

It really depends on your definition of powergamer though.

[Tsunami]

PS: Not too happy with the clause about Blood Drinker at range. Considering just ditching the option of using a gun in order to avoid it. Thoughts?

I'd say restricting it to Close Combat Weapons is a good idea. Imho Guns are too impersonal to be imbued with power this way in the first place.

Following this thought here's another suggestion for the background: I think the initial birth of the bloodthirst should come from the original wielder of the weapon as much as the deaths perpetrated with it.

[Sanctaphrax]

@EdgeOfDreams:

Truth is, I ignore templates when I play. But I think that having them around makes it a lot easier for people to come up with solid character concepts. A character who tries to make a character similar to this template with the Scion template can do it, but their character might be flat and twinky-looking.

@toturi:

Not sure what exactly you're getting at. I'd appreciate elucidation (I like that word).

@Tsunami:

Good idea about the background.

You're probably right about the guns, too, but I'll wait a while and see if anyone jumps in with an opposing opinion.

[Vairelome]

For an intuitive/fluff approach to the melee vs. guns question (warning: the following contains zero crunch/mechanics):

If you're thinking of a killing machine character with a high bodycount who might have contributed to the creation of one of these Bloodthirsty weapons, the melee-oriented guy is often associated with berserkers, barbarians, rage, and blood dripping from his chin and elbows.  These are all "hot" concepts, for lack of a better term.

The guns guy with a massive bodycount is often associated with snipers, patience, coldheartedness, and icy calm.  These are correspondingly "cool" concepts.

"Bloodthirsty" feels more like a "hot" concept, and would support a melee-only restriction.

(As a side note, the above analysis could be built into a Summer/Winter Fae connection, if you wanted to go there.  The fact that most of the weapons we'd be talking about are largely iron might be a reason not to, though.)

[cybertier]

I am thinking along the same linkes as Vairelome considering melee weapons vs ranged ones.
But maybe we could get something different for melee and ranged weapons?
Like instead of Blood Drinker a Feeding Dependency for using the weapons powers to bring pain and death to your enemies and the more Hunger you get the more the weapons urges you to kill?

Would have the "disadvantage" of bringing another +1 refresh to the template, which might be overkill.

Also what i miss as a template is some kind of Mythic Warrior, or Shaolin gone Badass. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower
Someone with magical potential that focused it in years of practicing physical tasks. (If you know Shadowrun: Adepts)
It could go with either any of the Inhuman * powers (or even supernatural *) or even Modular Powers, if you can focus your energies into different shapes. If Power Corrupts also Demonic Co-Pilot.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

@Tsunami:

Good idea about the background.

You're probably right about the guns, too, but I'll wait a while and see if anyone jumps in with an opposing opinion.

I think you could get away with guns under the right circumstances.  Seems like it'd work better if you limited firearms that qualify to 100 years or older ones though, for story reasons.  Give them time to acquire a solid history as a seriously bloodthirsty weapon.  Billy the Kid's navy colt or some such for instance.

Older firearms would also be ripe for compels along the lines of having to spend an important exchange dealing with slow reload on old revolvers.  Also, you could require period authentic ammo be used in it for the IoP powers to work.  Two or three exchanges of black powder would have much the same effect as a wizard casting a smoke/fog maneuver on the zone if you're indoors or don't have a good breeze.  Neither of those really takes much away from the weapon's combat effectiveness but they do add color and encourage a character to be multi-dimensional.

[Silverblaze]

I honestly agree that guns may indeed be too impersonal...but  I do like playing devil's advocate.

In the old World of Darkness system existed vampire blood mages.  They had a power called Theft of Vitae (blood).  It allowed them to use magic to pull blood from a target in a straight line to them and bringing into their own bodies.  I've also seen it work in such a fashion in a few video games.  Granted...no guns were involved...but vampires have done it other places.  I've also heard of a longbow doing what the weapons in question do in other games.

I can see the power being used at range as well, if properly justified.

[Sanctaphrax]

Alright, I think I'll leave guns out of the base template and write a note explaining how one would go about adding them to it.

Feeding Dependency is already possible with this template if one is taking physical powers. I intentionally put in every possible rebate so that people who wanted to take them all would be accommodated.

[Becq]

I think that Blood Drinker should require ... intimate contact with the blood in question.  It should not work remotely.  This translates well to, for example, edged weapons.  But for other weapons, I'd recommend using this rule of thumb: if the victim's blood isn't splattering all over the weapon (and wielder), the benefits of Blood Drinker (and any other related powers) just don't work.  So a Bloodthirsty sap or nightstick just isn't going to cut it most of the time.

In the case of guns, you could just rule that the gun operates normally at range -- that is, it operates as though it was a mundane weapon, without benefit of any linked powers.  The demon in the blade only wakes up when the damage is being inflicted up close and personal.  It wants you to press the muzzle of the weapon into the victim's flesh and squeeze the trigger, and is willing to help you (Demonic Copilot, True Aim) only for attacks that cater to its demands.  Only once the victim's blood bathes the weapon do you gain any benefits from Blood Drinker, including the +1 for having (previously) inflicted damage and the free recovery (assuming you kill).  Any other attack doesn't count (including attacks against other zones and attacks in which you make an effort to 'stay clean').

If you also attach Feeding Dependency, then simply possessing such a weapon is going to make you hunger for blood (and nothing else), just as though you were a Red Court.  Without Feeding Dependency, the urge is much less -- though in combat, it might still be difficult to resist the Bloodthirst Weapon's call (the Blood Frenzy aspect of Blood Drinker, expressed as potential compels against the Bloodthirsty Weapon Bearer High Concept).

These are my ideas on how to extrapolate, though note that Blood Drinker does specify "close personal combat" as a requirement for feeding via Drink Blood, and therefore for The Taste of Death.

[computerking]

l.  It wants you to press the muzzle of the weapon into the victim's flesh and squeeze the trigger, and is willing to help you (Demonic Copilot, True Aim) only for attacks that cater to its demands.  Only once the victim's blood bathes the weapon do you gain any benefits from Blood Drinker, including the +1 for having (previously) inflicted damage and the free recovery (assuming you kill).  Any other attack doesn't count (including attacks against other zones and attacks in which you make an effort to 'stay clean').

Bloodthirsty Belly Gun, I like it.

[toturi]

@toturi:

Not sure what exactly you're getting at. I'd appreciate elucidation (I like that word).

I was simply pointing out that there are many definitions of what is a powergamer. Some people think that powergamer is synonymous with munchkin and min-maxer. Some other people make distinctions between the 3 terms.

When I evaluate whether a system is powergamer friendly, there are a couple of key points I look for. I look for written rules apart from the obligatory genuflection towards "game balance" (usually appearing as the GM overrule clause) that directly or indirectly allow the GM control over the character. The more of these appear, the less powergamer friendly the system. The second thing I look for is similar to what you have stated - how many pathways are there to build a relatively powerful character. IMO, DFRPG isn't particularly powergamer friendly. IMO, there are quite a few GM override rules in the system.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Becq:

Good idea. I have nothing more than that to say, I'm afraid.

@toturi:

I see what you mean, now.

We do clearly have different definitions here. It seems to me that you think that part of powergaming is escaping from the control of the GM.

When I use the term, powergaming means nothing more complex than wanting to make a powerful character.

The ability of the GM to smack you down doesn't enter into it.

It's true that this game makes GM smackdowns pretty easy with the compel system, but it's never seemed like a problem to me because I assume that the GM doesn't want to smack me down.