Lawbreaker stress track?

[MAK]

Our Dresden campaign is set in the renaissance era and the idea of a strict police-like White Council does not fit very well. When thinking of any other ways to enforce the Laws of Magic, I got the idea of modeling the slow corruption of becoming a lawbreaker by a stress track.

I have not yet thought very far about when exactly would you have to mark stress there and how to get rid of the stress - any ideas or comments about the concept in general?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

There's no technical need to involve the Council in acquiring Lawbreaker.  It functions fine even without a Council at all.  Break too many laws, hit zero refresh, become an NPC, enforcement solved.

[MAK]

I have seen differing opinions on the role of the Council, but yes that is technically correct.

However, it is not the point.

Let me explain... The reactions I've seen with my players regarding the Laws are either:
a) accept them meekly and switch to nonlethal damage in spells
b) whine and complain that why spend the refresh when "you can't do anything"

Neither attitude is very fun, nor do they bring more drama to the table. What I was hoping the stress track idea would do was to tempt the type A players to try some borderline felonies and let the type B players feel unnerfed but still keep some limits.

So, to soften the sword-sharp (pun intended) border between law-abiding and lawberaker, how does a stress track sound? Maybe the lawbereaker power could be a consequence, and taken out is definately becoming an NPC...

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Personally, I think it cheapens the risk/reward dynamic.  The players could break one law as many times as they liked for only a -2 refresh already and gain power doing it.

[Haru]

I' with Buzzard on this one. If a player wants to play a lawbreaker, he should take the appropriate stunt. I mean... how would you kill a little bit?

Also, remember the lawbreaker stunt has nothing to do with the White Council. They will kill you if they think you have it, so you can have a stunt and be fine or don't have it and lose your head.

And lethal force doesn't have to be lethal at all. The important thing is the taken out result. I would never have someone take a lawbreaker, because he shot a fireball at someone and took him out, but if he then did something to ensure the death after that, that would come with a lawbreaker stunt. But again, the player actively decides to kill someone, it isn't as though he rolled extremely high damage or something, he just WANTED someone to die by his own hands, and that's what the lawbreaker means and should mean. Otherwise it would be pointless.

However, there can be occasions, where there is no need to take a lawbreaker at all. If for example everyone in the group is a lawbreaker, I would simply have them one lawbreaker for free. There is nothing special about it in a group like that, so I don't see a reason to charge everyone for it.

If your group has a problem with the lawbreaker idea, you could simply tweak your dresdenverse to make magic not corrupt the wielder. That way, you can play how you like it without having to worry about the things you don't.

[MAK]

Hmm... Maybe I'm trying to create a mechanical solution for a problem that could be solved more easily.

I guess the main problem in this case is that for verisimilitude we have set a maximum weapon rating for non-lethal force ("I dump a weapon:10 cement truck on the skinny mob goon, but he's only unconscious") - which some players feel is nerfing their power. It is not about wanting to kill the poor minions, but wanting to fire them cool big guns at them.

So maybe the problem could be solved by letting the trigger-happy pyromaniac wizard get his kicks by lobbing the weapon:6 fireball rote on a bunch of minions and to hell with verisimilitude. Go with a pulpy style where the goons go flying in all directions but always manage to crawl away afterwards to lick their wounds.

[admiralducksauce]

If I ever have to deal with Lawbreaker (I haven't yet, my players are stunts-only, minor magic items, or holy types), I'm going to use a Sponsored Magic type setup.  I don't want killing to grant wizards MORE bonuses for doing more killing.  I want to model the temptation and slippery slope, and offering up Dark Side-type compels is the way I'm going to go.  Meanwhile, the Lawbreaker can always call up Debt for those mechanical bonuses if they want without having a flat +1 (or more, which I REALLY don't like) bonus.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Honestly, my players seem to love most rulings they see as nerfing them, though they'd never admit it.  Gives them a chance to find sneaky ways around it, which means they get to put more enthusiasm into their end-zone dances.  Yes, they occasionally actually do end-zone dances.  We are an odd, odd bunch.

If I ever have to deal with Lawbreaker (I haven't yet, my players are stunts-only, minor magic items, or holy types), I'm going to use a Sponsored Magic type setup.  I don't want killing to grant wizards MORE bonuses for doing more killing.  I want to model the temptation and slippery slope, and offering up Dark Side-type compels is the way I'm going to go.  Meanwhile, the Lawbreaker can always call up Debt for those mechanical bonuses if they want without having a flat +1 (or more, which I REALLY don't like) bonus.

I don't sweat it giving them extra power.  I know they're quite likely to end up with an extremely short haircut in 0-2 scenarios, depending on how high-profile and which law, if they decide Lawbreaker is the way to go.  The changes in their aspects to reflect their lawbreaking are plenty for compels, if they made appropriate changes.  The extra power, eh, let em enjoy it for the short time they have left to live; it's not like I'm going to let them rack up +2 to multiple laws before the wardens show up, even if they have the spare refresh for it.

[ways and means]

So you beli

Honestly, my players seem to love most rulings they see as nerfing them, though they'd never admit it.  Gives them a chance to find sneaky ways around it, which means they get to put more enthusiasm into their end-zone dances.  Yes, they occasionally actually do end-zone dances.  We are an odd, odd bunch.

I don't sweat it giving them extra power.  I know they're quite likely to end up with an extremely short haircut in 0-2 scenarios, depending on how high-profile and which law, if they decide Lawbreaker is the way to go.  The changes in their aspects to reflect their lawbreaking are plenty for compels, if they made appropriate changes.  The extra power, eh, let em enjoy it for the short time they have left to live; it's not like I'm going to let them rack up +2 to multiple laws before the wardens show up, even if they have the spare refresh for it.

Another believer in the omniscient omnipresent wardens who just know, as long a pcs aren't flamboyant (like ripping someones heart out) I don't see the wardens showing up (the deaths need to be unusual for someone to be sent to investigate or close to someone under the doom of Damocles) so unless pc's escalate it shouldn't be a problem (cowl has stood among wizards of the white council probably the council as a whole with no one being the wiser), obviously the reason most get course is because lawbreaker lead to escalation. 

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Another believer in the omniscient omnipresent wardens who just know, as long a pcs aren't flamboyant (like ripping someones heart out) I don't see the wardens showing up (the deaths need to be unusual for someone to be sent to investigate or close to someone under the doom of Damocles) so unless pc's escalate it shouldn't be a problem (cowl has stood among wizards of the white council probably the council as a whole with no one being the wiser), obviously the reason most get course is because lawbreaker lead to escalation.

Nah, more a combination of knowing my players and escalation increasing the likelihood of being found out.  That said, sometimes the wardens do just find out like... well, magic.

[DFJunkie]

I don't want killing to grant wizards MORE bonuses for doing more killing.

The cost of Lawbreaker compares pretty well to the cost of a Refinement, especially if you interpret Lawbreaker strictly (ie. Lawbreaker First would not provide a bonus when intending to kill non-mortals).

To address the OP's idea of a Lawbreaker stress track, I agree with Buzzard that you don't need to create one deal with the corruption inherent in breaking the laws, but I think that a stress track would be a great way to model Council attention.  Other versions of Fate use a plot stress track, and when the track fills bad things happen. 

For instance: whenever a character breaks a law it applies a certain amount of stress to the track depending on the flagrancy of the violation and how easily it would be noticed.  A minor consequence would result in increased Warden scrutiny in the area, a Moderate consequence would be a relatively polite inquiry, a Severe one would be a more pointed inquiry, and a Taken Out result would be a full-blown witch hunt.  The player could perhaps reduce the stress track simply by lying low or even purposefully spreading false rumors and misdirecting the Wardens.

[sinker]

Of note MAK I've had the same problem for different reasons. We came up with a number of different solutions. Check it out. I went with the combination lawbreaking still twisting aspects every three times and the Lawbreaking debt that the admiral mentioned (*Salutes* "Admiral.").

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27475.0.html

As far as dropping a cement truck on someone and them being fine, you have to realize that DFRPG is a story game, not a simulation game. Do you realize that by RAW you may not have hit someone with an attack, even if they take consequences from it? If you shoot me, I can take the consequence of "Sprained ankle" if I like. Because the concept of stress and consequences in DFRPG is all about an attack forcing you to use resources to escape harm. Stress is not = to damage, stress is stress that builds up as you are leaping out of the way of damage. Even consequences, while they do represent actual injury, do not have to be directly related to the attack, but may instead be related to escaping the attack, or something that the attack forced you to do. Keep these things in  mind when you get too worried about weapon 10 attacks.

[DFJunkie]

Because the concept of stress and consequences in DFRPG is all about an attack forcing you to use resources to escape harm. Stress is not = to damage, stress is stress that builds up as you are leaping out of the way of damage.

This.

[MAK]

Excellent point, and not only an issue of simulation vs story. I've seen throuble grasping even such abstractions as hit point damage in D&D.

I have to remember the actual "damage" in DFRPG happens with consequences and when the attacker decides how the opponent is taken out (regardless of how much stress the attack would have caused) .

This solves the original issue of verisimilitude we had with insane weapon ratings in evocation.

I do still think stress tracks and consequences are an elegant way to model many more things than they currently do, though :-)

[Magickal_Grenadier]

lethal force doesn't have to be lethal at all.

I agree with this all the way. In the current game my group has been playing, my character has a Rote that fires mutible bullet like force projectiles. Considering this, the spell could very easily cause leathal damage by hitting a vital organ. Even though it is lethal force, it can't really be grounds for a Lawbreaker [First] unless I make the choice to use my magick to kill my target. Then again, it could occur to the GM, that through the use of that particular spell, I may accidentally kill the target, of course depending on the target being human. If that particular Compel is accepted, it could create more drama in the story by bringing the scrutiny of the Wardens down on him, especially since I was just named a Warden, and cause consequences for the character himself by knowing that, though unintentional, his magick ended the life of a fellow human being.