Taking yourself out

[ways and means]

nothing like a 20 shift permanent block on all magic to ruin a evil warlocks day.

[UmbraLux]

So there really is no difference between letting a player take all of his consequences and stresses to make a large attack...they just don't die. (They also don't get free tags).

I suppose the one difference is that the curse can be thaumaturgy rather than evocation. (unless the caster has sponsored magic, in which case it virtually is no different. 

So either death curses are only a little better than blowing it all on one spell or blowing it all on one spell should be discouraged.  It makes death curses look less impressive to me.

In addition to thaumaturgy's flexibility, death curses also appear to allow you to take all open stress / consequences at once rather than one at a time.  Perhaps more important when considering spell power, you don't need to roll to control a death curse.  That alone raises their potential significantly.

But in general you're correct - which is why prepared wardens don't need to worry too much about being hit with a death curse.

[Tedronai]

Perhaps more important when considering spell power, you don't need to roll to control a death curse.  That alone raises their potential significantly.

Only because it doesn't really matter if you take fifty-bajillion stress in backlash, since it's a DEATH-curse.
But then, if you allows casters to take themselves out via power-calling-stress without the spell then automatically failing, they can do the same thing there, too.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think you can use a death curse as part of your death-scene narration.

So it doesn't take an action.

That's actually a pretty big deal.

[Becq]

Yes it does, shifts still have to be paid for.  A death curse simply gives you a free tag on all of your consequences and allows you to inflict multiple (instead of the one you normally get) consequences on yourself at once if you have the space.  "...all of the consequences he has can be tagged, and he can inflict more on himself..."

This.  Death Curses are not unlimited.  You must still summon power, but you get some free tags from your consequences.  You don't need to control it, because you're assumed to take the entire amount as backlash.  To get an idea of scale for a Death Curse, an example:

The Wizard in question dies to an enemy who walks up to him and thrusts a (non-Warden) blade through his heart.  No time to cast defensive spells, but time for a Curse.  He had taken no consequences previously, and has Lore 5, a +1 complexity bonus appropriate to the curse he's decided on.  He has three Fate, and at least three aspects appropriate to the casting.  So, the complexity would appear to be:

5 (Lore) + 1 (complexity specialization) + 2+4+6+8 (sacrifice of unused consequences) + 2+2+2+2 (tagging all consequences suffered) + 2+2+2 (invoking three aspects) = 40

So his curse could be anything he could do with 40 shifts of Thaum.  No control needed (assume it fails and he takes 40-shifts worth of backlash to no effect more significant than the decapitation).  No time take, it's a reaction to the swing of the decapitating blade.

Note that this is not assuming a highly-specialized build.  If the character had a Conviction 5 (and therefore another consequence), it would go up.  More specializations in Thaum complexity would improve it.  More available invocations (or possibly some appropriate free-taggable aspects) would help.  On the other hand, if the Wizard had already been wounded previously, it would go down (because he wouldn't be able to sacrifice those consequences, though he'd still get the additional free tag on them).

[UmbraLux]

Becq covered it better than I did...afraid I made an assumption that the wizard was wounded when estimating 20-30 shifts.   

Only because it doesn't really matter if you take fifty-bajillion stress in backlash, since it's a DEATH-curse.
But then, if you allows casters to take themselves out via power-calling-stress without the spell then automatically failing, they can do the same thing there, too.

Remember, there are two points where stress / consequences are potentially used:  first in setting the spell's power level and second in controlling the power.  Only the second is removed by a death curse.  So you're not going to get the "fifty-bajillion" shifts to start with. 

A caster taking themselves out via casting may qualify as a death curse (probably open to interpretation at different tables) but must die in order for that to be valid.  Hopefully there aren't many suicidal wizards running around! 

[The Mighty Buzzard]

The Wizard in question dies to an enemy who walks up to him and swings a (non-Warden) blade through his neck.  No time to cast defensive spells, but time for a Curse.

Kind of iffy there.  I don't think I'd allow a death curse if his head came off.  I was going to say it might not be possible if he couldn't speak it too but all that did to Harry in FM was cause him to take a couple shifts of backlash, so I'd just treat it as an aspect tagged against him and give him -2 shifts if I did anything at all.

[Becq]

Kind of iffy there.  I don't think I'd allow a death curse if his head came off.  I was going to say it might not be possible if he couldn't speak it too but all that did to Harry in FM was cause him to take a couple shifts of backlash, so I'd just treat it as an aspect tagged against him and give him -2 shifts if I did anything at all.

I modified the scenario (see previous post) in an attempt to remove the iffiness.  The details of the death were not meant to be relevant, what was meant to be important was that (1) the Wizard saw the attack coming, but (2) he didn't have time to bring up defenses, and to a lesser extent that (3) he was unwounded before the attack that took him out.

In any case, since the Death Curse does not take any appreciable amount of time, I think the head-lopping scenario is probably fine, so long as the Wizard saw the sword swinging before it bit in.  That split second is, I think, enough.  A Wizard getting hit by a head shot from a sniper rifle, or who got his head lopped off from behind without warning would not have even that split second; thus no Death Curse.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think it's possible to deny a PC his death curse.

YS page 203 touches on this. It says that a wizard always gets a death curse if the situation allows it. It also says that a character always "owns" his death scene. Put those together and it seems that a PC's narrative privilege includes the right to a death curse.

NPCs, of course, have no rights.

PS: How the heck is a character with an empty consequence track and 3 FP getting stabbed to death? That strikes me as implausible.
PPS: Would you allow someone to make Declarations as part of a death curse? Because I totally would.

[UmbraLux]

PS: How the heck is a character with an empty consequence track and 3 FP getting stabbed to death? That strikes me as implausible.

Uncommon certainly.  It'd take 12+ shifts of damage to take out an unwounded victim.  Not impossible...just takes setting up. 

(click to show/hide)

I'd say Kincaid managed it in Ghost Story.

(GS reference.)

PPS: Would you allow someone to make Declarations as part of a death curse? Because I totally would.

Absolutely!  Subject to the same limitations as any declarations of course.

[Sanctaphrax]

It'd take 20 stress to bypass all consequences, 2-4 stress to bypass the stress track, at least 3 stress to bypass the effects of the FP, and 1 point to actually take the wizard out. That is at minimum a 26 stress hit.

How the heck do you do that with a knife?

I guess maybe a death curse would be a better idea than taking consequences and spending FP and trying to fight if the opponent outmatched you and you knew you couldn't get a concession. I guess that could be the case here.

PS: Would you use the limits on declarations for thaumaturgy or for combat for a death curse? Do you even distinguish between the two?

[UmbraLux]

It'd take 20 stress to bypass all consequences, 2-4 stress to bypass the stress track, at least 3 stress to bypass the effects of the FP, and 1 point to actually take the wizard out. That is at minimum a 26 stress hit.

Can you take more than one consequence to mitigate a single attack?  If so, you're correct (assuming he chooses to take more than one - I tend to limit NPC consequences).  But assassination is still possible...just takes more set up.

How the heck do you do that with a knife?

About ten maneuvers and declarations.    Doable for an assassin planning a hit.

I guess maybe a death curse would be a better idea than taking consequences and spending FP and trying to fight if the opponent outmatched you and you knew you couldn't get a concession. I guess that could be the case here.

PS: Would you use the limits on declarations for thaumaturgy or for combat for a death curse? Do you even distinguish between the two?

The major limitation to me is "must fit the situation".  Time alone will limit declarations between the instant of injury and blacking out.  I'd probably disallow any declarations based on preparation simply because of the short time casting is accomplished in. 

[Tedronai]

Becq covered it better than I did...afraid I made an assumption that the wizard was wounded when estimating 20-30 shifts.   
Remember, there are two points where stress / consequences are potentially used:  first in setting the spell's power level and second in controlling the power.  Only the second is removed by a death curse.  So you're not going to get the "fifty-bajillion" shifts to start with. 

I was using 'fifty-bajillion' as a a stand-in for 'a large number' in true Dresden style, considering that it's not even a real number.
The point being that, if casters are allowed to take themselves out with stress inflicted merely by calling up power without the spell then automatically failing, any stress taken in backlash by being unable to control that power becomes meaningless, as they've already been taken out.

Can you take more than one consequence to mitigate a single attack?

I am under the impression that you indeed can.

[UmbraLux]

I was using 'fifty-bajillion' as a a stand-in for 'a large number' in true Dresden style, considering that it's not even a real number.

Blasphemy! 

Sorry, had to post it.   

[zenten]

Isn't there some sort of resistance roll for death curses though?