A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)

[Mira]

That doesn't mean that Nicodemus/Anduriel would know about Lasciel's revenge plot against Harry.  At the end of SmF, Harry told Nicodemus, "Lasciel's shadow doesn't live here anymore."  We find out later that Harry was wrong about this, but it was what Harry believed at the time, and I'm quite sure Nicodemus was able to note Harry's sincerity.  I think it's pretty likely that if Harry actually had found a way to permanently remove Lasciel's shadow, that would have the effect of breaking his connection to Lasciel's coin, possibly by severing the principle of contagion permitting Lasciel's whispering communication.  If Nicodemus compromised Church security (...again...) and stole the coin, Lasciel may well have decided not to tell Nicodemus that her line of communication with Harry was back open--we're told that Lasciel and Anduriel generally don't work together.

  Harry was right, Lasciel's shadow didn't live in his head anymore, she had become "Lash."  She had changed, and even if she was still there, at that moment she was still gravely wounded..

[Vairelome]

  Harry was right, Lasciel's shadow didn't live in his head anymore, she had become "Lash."  She had changed, and even if she was still there, at that moment she was still gravely wounded..

No, that's not what Harry meant.  At that point in SmF, Harry believed that Lash had effectively committed "suicide" to save him in the Raith Deeps, and was therefore "dead" and gone (for whatever values "dead" has for an angelic shadow/mental construct).

Harry believed that Lash was not pining for the fjords; she'd passed on; this shadow was no more; she had ceased to be.  Lash had expired and gone to meet her Maker; she's a stiff; bereft of life, she rests in peace.  If she hadn't been a mental construct that lived only in Harry's head, she'd be pushing up the daisies; her metabolic processes are now history; she's off the twig; she's kicked the bucket; she's shuffled off her mortal coil; run down the curtain and (re-)joined the choir invisible.  Lash is an ex-parrotshadowy resident of Harry's mind.

But now she's back, though Harry may not realize it yet, depending on whether he correctly deduced the identity of the "parasite" mentioned in the cave on Demonreach.

[Paladino]

While I personally belive a denarian shouldn't be able to influence a possible host, beside the construct they put in their mind to tempt them. We have no proof of it. So maybe we are doing a lot of noise about Lasciel not being able to whisper for Harry, when it's possible that it's completely under her power to do so..

Also, there are a lot of explanations that could allow Lasciel do whisper like that, Nic and the other nickleheads could have helped her by recovering her coin and making some kind of spell, Lucifer could have helped the Denarians again...

I don't think there is such thing as the church not warding the coins right.. While it was under Harry wardens, he could acces hellfire and Lash and Harry kept saying that if he wanted he could summon the coin at any momment... So, I dont see Harry warding of the coin doing any good... Maybe only stopping other person to pick up the coin..

[Vairelome]

Well, here's the logical chain supporting the theory:

We have WoJ that Lasciel was in GS, but not referred to by name.  The majority theory is that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, both because you can construct a logical set of motivations that would cause Lasciel to act in that way, and because there aren't any alternative appearances that make more sense.  Therefore, for what follows, we are assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow.

Logically, if Lasciel was the whispering shadow, she would have to actually have the ability to whisper in Harry's head.  Yes, this is obvious, but it's also important.  If you go back and check the scene at the end of DM from Harry's first contact with Lasciel's coin up to the point where he encloses it in the circle and buries it in his basement, I seem to remember rather a lot of Lasciel talking in his head, even when he no longer had skin contact with the coin.  This mental contact abruptly cut off when the warding circle closed around the coin.

(The counterargument would be that this was all proto-Lash, the shadow Lasciel had just stuck in Harry's head, and the whispering cut off as part of the shadow's long con, tricking Harry into thinking--wrongly--that his direct, whisper-link connection to Lasciel had been cut off by the effects of the warding circle.  This doesn't work, however, because it would completely undercut the entire Lash plotline, and JB has been quite clear that the Lash plotline was legitimate--Harry did manage to change Lasciel's shadow into Lash.  Therefore, we can conclude that Harry's ward was effective, and it did cut off direct contact between him and Lasciel.)

Now, if Harry's ward was effective, and Lasciel's shadow was able to transform into Lash in the absence of Lasciel's supervision, how was Lasciel later able to contact Harry again in Changes?  If Salacia's theory at the beginning of this thread is correct, Lasciel's whispers began in TC, and continued until the missing scene in Changes that was revealed in GS.  Logically, we must conclude that Lasciel's coin was no longer behind a working warding circle, potentially as far back as sometime during TC.

We know that Harry dug up the coin after Lash "died" in the Raith Deeps at the end of WN, and handed it over to Father Forthill for safekeeping.  We don't know its exact movements from that point, but since Father Forthill has been KotC support for many years and knew very well the significance and danger of the coin, we should expect that he was extremely careful.  On the other hand, Nicodemus has made a hobby of recovering coins from the Church for about 2000 years, with moderate success.

Nicodemus first learns that his plot to corrupt Harry using Lasciel's coin has completely failed at the end of SmF, when he tries to use Lasciel's shadow to defeat Harry just off the shore of Demonreach.  Harry tricks him into thinking it worked for a moment, and then utterly horrifies Nicodemus by revealing that the shadow isn't there anymore.  Harry works really hard at finishing him off right then, but we have WoJ that Nicodemus escaped, and we'll see him again in the book after CD.

So.  You're Nicodemus at the end of SmF, and you've just discovered that Lasciel's coin did not do the job of removing Harry from his current mission--"saving the world, one act of random destruction at a time."  We have no text or WoJ evidence to tell us what Nicodemus was up to after the end of SmF, so this is all purely conjecture.  However, it would make sense for Nicodemus to do what he's done before, infiltrating the Church to recover one of the coins.  If he did so, and was successful at removing Lasciel's coin from whatever warding circle held it, the timing makes perfect sense for Lasciel to start whispering to Harry again midway through TC, as in Salacia's theory.

To be sure, this chain of logic involves guesswork and supposition as far as the activities of Nicodemus and Lasciel.  On the other hand, I don't think there's any suggestion in the books or WoJs that it's NOT right (please let me know if you think of any), and all of the actions taken in the theory are consistent with the known knowledge, motivations, and past practices of the entities involved, as far as I can tell.

[TheCuriousFan]

A thought, what are the odds that Nicodemus has been focusing on getting coins back since Death Masks? He was down to having Diedre as the only Denarian following him, what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?

[KevinSig]

I still don't like to place Lashiel there, but if the shadow was her, it might also explain the resurgence of Lash.  Maybe just having contact with Lashiel rebooted her.  (Some think the headaches, in TC, were related, but because of the tarp over Little Chicago, I'm personally leaning towards the mental tampering myself.)

Also, while I didn't recall this, but only recently ran into it, apparently angels have Intellectus, per Harry's conversation in Turn Coat.  And would explain why Harry was able to resist the temptation of a coin.

If Lashiel's shadow had access to Intellectus, she'd be more likely to know how to get to Harry.  However, since Harry locked off the coin, the shadow (Lash) couldn't confer with her progenitor.  Ergo, Harry only had to contend with the copy.

Not a copy that could get advice from the original.

Kevin

[Mira]

  I do not recall any whispering in Harry's head in Turn Coat.  The last whisper Harry hears from Lash comes at the end of White Night, after supposedly Lash was dead.. That is when he dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill.  The coin was rejected, end story, because if you go on that theory, Sanya should also still be under the influence etc, because he actually took up the coin and worked under the influence till he rejected it and became a Holy Knight.  We have the WOJ that Harry changed Lasciel's shadow, she became Lash.. So she was no longer there to take over in Turn Coat, the shadow had been changed and the coin rejected. 

I find it troubling that a shadow of the Fallen could turn up on Holy ground to begin with, I thought that was impossible.  People like to point to Lasciel's shadow, but when she was there before it was in Harry's head, not independent.  If the coin was close by in protected so no one could get to it, I think it is possible that Lasciel still could project herself, especially since Harry had been in contact with her before.  Remember her shadow became Sheila and then took up residence in Harry's head while still buried and in the circle that Harry tried to shut her up in. 

Now one has to ask the question, if that was indeed a projection of Lasciel whispering to Harry in Changes, why did she push for his suicide rather than try to get him to take up the coin?  Harry was desperate enough to become Winter Knight, was he also desperate enough to trade his soul to save little Maggie?  If so, why not offer?  Or was Lasciel rejecting Harry now as a host, going instead for revenge because she was so soundly rejected.

[TheCuriousFan]

Or was Lasciel rejecting Harry now as a host, going instead for revenge because she was so soundly rejected.

Considering the "woman scorned" WoJ we have about her......

I find it troubling that a shadow of the Fallen could turn up on Holy ground to begin with, I thought that was impossible. 

Technically, it was Lasciel proper (assuming the Lasciel=whispering shadow theory is correct) whispering to Harry, and the Fallen can go into churches, they just don't like to according to Harry in Small Favour.

[Paladino]

Now one has to ask the question, if that was indeed a projection of Lasciel whispering to Harry in Changes, why did she push for his suicide rather than try to get him to take up the coin?  Harry was desperate enough to become Winter Knight, was he also desperate enough to trade his soul to save little Maggie?  If so, why not offer?  Or was Lasciel rejecting Harry now as a host, going instead for revenge because she was so soundly rejected.

I find it pretty simple actually Mira, Uriel says in GS that the creature knew enough of mankind to know exactly what kind of decision it would take. So Lasciel (Assumin she was the whispering shadow as I belive) would know that if Harry needed power he would go first for Mab. Since she was the lesser evil, and if you analize it the option with best probability of succes. She would heal him at the moment and could provide help instantly. While the Denarian were hardly all together somewhere in the world where Harry could call them instantly... And the Darkhallow, would take to long to make, plus since wouldn't be done on hallowen, without the spirit borders being weakned and without the erlking being summoned, would give much a smaller booster than it was mentioned in DB. So both Darkhallow and the Denarians would actually need time to pull it off, that if you analize, Harry did not have.

So Mab was the logical conclusion, and Lasciel knew Harry would go for her. Even if he bluffed Mab about the Denarians and the Darkhallow. So she knew that the best she could acomplish was get him to kill himself..

[Vairelome]

I do not recall any whispering in Harry's head in Turn Coat.

This was from the first post in this thread, and it's part of Salacia's theory that the whispering shadow revealed in GS wasn't the first time Lasciel had whispered in Harry's head, it was just the time with the biggest effect.

Harry and Bob are discussing what shagnasty did with Thomas during TC.

“He’s alive,” I said quietly. “Or at least I’m going to proceed on that assumption.
Bob somehow managed to look baffled. “Why?”
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head. “Because anything else isn’t particularly useful in resolving this situation,” I said aloud.

And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.

The italicized bit is rather telling, I think.  Salacia searched for similar phrasing, and only found that line in TC and a few specific lines in Changes, which would fit the timeline I suggested above.  Re-read her post at the beginning of this thread; it's quite well done.

[Mira]

This was from the first post in this thread, and it's part of Salacia's theory that the whispering shadow revealed in GS wasn't the first time Lasciel had whispered in Harry's head, it was just the time with the biggest effect.

And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.


The italicized bit is rather telling, I think.  Salacia searched for similar phrasing, and only found that line in TC and a few specific lines in Changes, which would fit the timeline I suggested above.  Re-read her post at the beginning of this thread; it's quite well done.

  I respectfully disagree, I believe you are reading too much into it.  Actually there are examples all though the series, going back as far as Storm Front where Harry talks to himself in exactly that tone.

[Vairelome]

Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly.  I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.

Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.

Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.

I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself.  Can you provide examples from the text?

[Mira]

Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly.  I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.

Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.

Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.

I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself.  Can you provide examples from the text?

  I can, but that will have to wait a while, I am up to my arm pits in holiday baking.  However I will point out that Harry also had whole dialogues with himself when asleep and when injured, even an alternate Harry appearing in his vision before Lasciel ever became part of the picture, Fool Moon comes to mind.  So even though I hear what you are saying about the image of the "quiet whisper" I do not think it is as straight forward.

[toodeep]

I seem to remember rather a lot of Lasciel talking in his head, even when he no longer had skin contact with the coin.  This mental contact abruptly cut off when the warding circle closed around the coin.

There was no Lasciel/Lash talking before the coin was put in the circle.  That was the first thing Harry did after picking up the coin.  It was only much later (after he chose to use hellfire) that he had an actual conversation with what became Lash.  You could argue he never communicated with Lasciel.

Logically, if Lasciel was the whispering shadow, she would have to actually have the ability to whisper in Harry's head.  Yes, this is obvious, but it's also important....  If Salacia's theory at the beginning of this thread is correct, Lasciel's whispers began in TC, and continued until the missing scene in Changes that was revealed in GS.  Logically, we must conclude that Lasciel's coin was no longer behind a working warding circle, potentially as far back as sometime during TC.

Of course, this also assumes that the fallen in the coins would be allowed to "break the rules" an awful lot.  You have to remember that that communication from the fallen angel to Harry was in some way a breaking of the rules that allowed a reply by Uriel.  Somehow, I don't think a Denarian lying to their coinholder counts as breaking the rules.  Once someone has chosen to open themselves up to a Denarian, they are allowed to talk/lie/ to their holder.  So if this was Lasciel using her connection to Harry, then the lie may not have counted as a breaking of the rules.

[Vairelome]

There was no Lasciel/Lash talking before the coin was put in the circle.  That was the first thing Harry did after picking up the coin.  It was only much later (after he chose to use hellfire) that he had an actual conversation with what became Lash.  You could argue he never communicated with Lasciel.

I remember there being communication on some level, though, because Harry found it difficult to bury the coin due to Lasciel's influence.  I'd have to re-read the scene to sort it all out.

Of course, this also assumes that the fallen in the coins would be allowed to "break the rules" an awful lot.  You have to remember that that communication from the fallen angel to Harry was in some way a breaking of the rules that allowed a reply by Uriel.  Somehow, I don't think a Denarian lying to their coinholder counts as breaking the rules.  Once someone has chosen to open themselves up to a Denarian, they are allowed to talk/lie/ to their holder.  So if this was Lasciel using her connection to Harry, then the lie may not have counted as a breaking of the rules.

The "breaking the rules" bit wasn't the fact of the communication itself, or the lie as such.  It was specifically a lie told in circumstances that would force mortal's "choice" such that he could not exercise his free will, and that "choice" led to the mortal's death.  The key points are the breaking of a mortal's free will, and that mortal's death as a direct consequence.  (Uriel clarifies this when Harry asks why Shagnasty's horrendous torture of Thomas--including specifically the breaking of his free will in forcing him to kill repeatedly--did not count as "cheating/breaking the rules."  According to Uriel, this was not sufficient because Thomas did not die as a result.)