A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)

[Mira]

To me, if Lasciel were really behind those voices, she would want to turn the knife in his belly for decades at least and really make those decades absolute torture for him for having the gall to think he could not only defy, but in a way defeat, one of the witnesses to Creation itself. Dresden is a wizard, and with their enhanced lifespans, she could stretch that torture out for centuries if she did it right. Nicodemus was hesitant to give Lasciel to Dresden, not only because she didn't always follow his lead, but because she was at least powerful enough to oppose him if she so chose. That would put her probably in the top 5 of the most powerful Fallen. With great power usually comes great ego, and for an affront to her like what Dresden did, the only viable solution for her would be a very long period of very awful torture. Not a few whispers of despair to convince him to kill himself a few short years of relative peace afterward. Actually, given that the words usually galvanized Harry into taking necessary actions, it almost seems like the work of Lash, taking on the role of that drill sergeant/high school football coach who likes to call people maggots and worthless and weak as motivation to prove him wrong.

I have to disagree, if that shadow was Lasciel goading Harry to suicide, while she didn't prolong his torture, she did twist the knife in the most painful way.  Knowing Harry as she does, through Lash, and just knowing her subjects, she understands Harry's over active sense of thinking he is responsible for everything, his quickness to assume guilt where none exists, though he dances with the darkside his desire to avoid it..  There is nothing she could do to him that would cause greater pain than to say, "and it is all your fault.."  Accomplish two things or maybe three depending on how you look at it.  1] Cause great pain and suffering for Harry, to the point where he wishes to end his life.  I do not buy it was just to avoid becoming Mab's monster, but to punish himself for what went down.  We have evidence of that in GS. 2] To rid the Denarians of a very powerful foe, revenge also may be a factor. 3] To deprive Heaven of a soldier in the up and coming battle.

[ebliss1]

Depriving Heaven is a great motivation, but wouldn't it be better in the long run for her side to turn Dresden? The delicious pain from having him lose everything he holds dear, from constantly forcing him into having to choose between bad and worse, and of him having to watch helplessly as he slides further and further away from what make him Harry is a far better punishment. It'd be like Vader Syndrome, in reverse.

[Magis]

No books in front of me to confirm this, but wasn't there a distinctly female guiding voice in Storm Front? Right outside the Lake House? I'm fairly certain. If so, this means there's been a voice hanging around since the very beginning, and there need be no connection to Lasciel at all.


--- Magis

[Mira]

Depriving Heaven is a great motivation, but wouldn't it be better in the long run for her side to turn Dresden? The delicious pain from having him lose everything he holds dear, from constantly forcing him into having to choose between bad and worse, and of him having to watch helplessly as he slides further and further away from what make him Harry is a far better punishment. It'd be like Vader Syndrome, in reverse.

Except she didn't succeed, Harry dug up the coin and had Father Forthill take it away.  Harry resisted the shadow and rejected the coin successfully, we have the word of Uriel on that.  That is why he was gifted with Soul Fire.  There was a female voice sometimes in
Storm Front, Harry thought it was his mother.

[KevinSig]

First off, let me give you my own opinion on who the shadow was.  Lucifer, (or Lucy, if that's your preference).

Why?  In Ghost Story, we learn that it wasn't a Fallen Angel exactly (per Jack).  Lucy, in my mind fits this.  In the same way that Alvin isn't exactly one of the Chipmunks.  And yet, at the end of the book, Uriel states that what got Harry was once an angel.

I believe we have WOJ that Uriel has intellectus (trying to find the quote).  So I'm willing to attribute it to Lucy as well.  Which, in my thinking would go a long way to explaining how the entity, knew exactly what to say & when to say it, to Harry.

Harry would have thwarted Lucy, himself in Small Favor, so this would have certainly been a result of him thinking of the best time to strike at Harry.

Also, I'm willing to bet that it would take a major hellion, to lie to Harry within the confines of the church.


I acknowledge that there is a WOJ, that the Fallen can extend their influence beyond the coins, but it still doesn't feel right:

What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.

Not to say that I couldn't be wrong, but I don't like the idea of Lashiel, being able to get into Harry's head, with both a church & distance standing in her way.  Plus, last we knew she was still in church hands & I also dislike the idea that both Lea & Lashiel were put in action at the same time.

So, I fall back on my own interpretation, that it was Lucy.  I've seen nothing that makes it clear either way.  And since I've seen some WOJs that confuse Lash & Lashiel, I'm not prepared to say that its impossible that Jim messed up in saying that Lash & Lashiel were both in Ghost Story, since the only time I've seen a quote on the matter, it wasn't entirely clear (to me) that he intended to mean both.

Kevin

[PirateJack]

No offence, but not accepting canon because you don't like it doesn't make it any less a part of canon. Jim has stated that both Lasciel and Lash showed up in Ghost Story, which if we use deductive reasoning leaves only the Shadow and the Parasite as possible candidates for their appearance. Lash is obviously the parasite because she's stated as using Harry's soul as a battery during White Night (plus, Lasciel is an independent entity, no parasitism there). Lasciel therefore must have been the Shadow who whispered into Harry's ear.

That's about as much confirmation as you can get without it being directly stated that Lasciel was the Shadow.

[KevinSig]

No offence, but not accepting canon because you don't like it doesn't make it any less a part of canon.

I've read at least one or two direct quotes from Jim that makes it seem, like he has some issues keeping the two straight.  (Understandable, since the name Lash was used for less than a half of a book.)  Other than that, all I've heard is second hand stuff that attributes things to Jim, but aren't anything like a direct quote.

In the WOJ compilation it only states that Lash was in Ghost Story, not Lashiel. 

Is Lash coming back?
Lash actually appeared in Ghost Story, although not under that name.

So, from what I've seen, what you accept as cannon is at best a fishy sounding rumor to me.  And does not absolutely state that that the entity is Lashiel in any case.

People have only told me that Jim supposedly said that he stated both Lash & Lashiel are in GS, but the only thing I've seen is the Lash comment.  Until, I see something concrete, I stick to my own read of the scene.  Placing Lashiel there seems forced.

I grant I might be wrong, but I also know that people jump to conclusions.  That might be the case here.

[TheCuriousFan]

So, from what I've seen, what you accept as cannon is at best a fishy sounding rumor to me.  And does not absolutely state that that the entity is Lashiel in any case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlMVQrrmgnw&feature=autoplay&list=PL29F6E08FB4FB0E75&playnext=1

Its about a minute in, both Lash and Lasciel were in Ghost Story but not under those names.

[Paladino]

Beside, while Jack say it was kind of a fallen angel, Uriel confirms it was a fallen angel. One could say that Lucifer is a fallen angel, but one also could say that is actually a fallen Archangel, what would remove him of the pool of candidates for the whispering shadow...

After a lot of discussing, re-reading, interpreting woj, I'll keep with the theorie of Lasciel = Whispering shadow and Lash the parasite. And that the headaches he had in TC was the damaged part of his brain healing up. And that it has finished healing by the end of GS, but not by Mab in changes, since he asked to restore his body to health, and that can be interpreted in a thousand ways..

Edit: Also aganst Lash being the shadow there is Uriel word that the shadow was an angel a long time ago, While lash has never been an angel, but a construc made by Lasciel..

[KevinSig]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlMVQrrmgnw&feature=autoplay&list=PL29F6E08FB4FB0E75&playnext=1

Its about a minute in, both Lash and Lasciel were in Ghost Story but not under those names.

That is more definitive.  Prior to now, the occasion was described to me in terms that were less concrete.  As such, Lashiel being the whisperer makes more sense.

I concede the point, but hope the reason why Lashiel was there at that exact moment, could be fleshed out.

[Rasins]

Not to say that I couldn't be wrong, but I don't like the idea of Lashiel, being able to get into Harry's head, with both a church & distance standing in her way.  Plus, last we knew she was still in church hands & I also dislike the idea that both Lea & Lashiel were put in action at the same time.

For all we know Lasciel's coin may still be in St. Mary's.  It may not have been that much of a distance for Lasciel to send out her shadow to Harry.  We really don't know.  Besides that, we know the denarians can have influence here on earth beyond their coin via WoJ.

[Mercutio]

I (as usual ) see things slightly differently.

Inez is where I see two branching possiblities... one is that she is Mab in disguise, the other is that she is Lashiel in disguise.  Inez tries to make Harry believe he will be a Monster, and that being a Monster is a good thing.  They would say the same things because it is in their best interest to push Harry into darker states of mind.  Mab wants to make Harry easier to manipulate, Lashiel wants him to be easier to corrupt. 

Since GS is all about proxies(SP) that mean that one of them is represented by Inez.  Mab can just as be represented by Lea,  Lashiel could be the shadow that tricks Harry, but I see Lucy or Nicky's shadow as more likely... UNLESS Lashiels coin has already found itself a new holder. Then I guess I can see a whole Spiderman/Venom thing happening.

But as a whole I don't really buy into the whole scorned Fallen Angel angel.  Lash wasn't tied to the to coin, she was free to develop unless Harry touched the Coin again.  If that had happened Lash would have been consumed by Lashiel, at which point the Fallen would have gained all the personal intel some of you seem to think she has on Harry.  I dont think Lashiel has current access to Harry's state of mind, what she has is a book of Harry that covers everything he remembers of his own life until he shields the coin (NOT the same thing as everything that's happened to him, and assuming she's still in the coin).  Now if she was picked up by a new wielder they/she could investigate to see what Harry's doing , and potentially get pissed at being put off and plotting revenge.

What others have said may be right, but if anything I put forth give people other avenues of thought to explore I'm happy.

[TheCuriousFan]

Inez is where I see two branching possiblities... one is that she is Mab in disguise, the other is that she is Lashiel in disguise. 

We have WoJ that Mab had a proxy at each conversation at the graveyard.

[Paladino]

The WoJ say that both Demonreach and Mab had a proxy in both conversation at Harry's grave, so we can take conversation number 1 Inez = Mab Proxy, Eternal Silence = Demonreach Proxy. Conversation number 2 Lea = Mab Proxy, Eternal Silence = Demonreach.

So it kind rules out Lash or Lasciel being at those scenes. Of course, Lash or Lasciel could be Inez while being proxy for Mab, possible, but I find hard to belive. Lasciel especially.

So I'll keep idea that Lash = Parasite, Lasciel = Whispering Shadow.

[Vairelome]

I believe one of the consequences of Lasciel being the whispering shadow is that her coin must not be locked away behind a warding circle.  It's at least strongly suggested that one of the effects of Lasciel's coin being buried in the concrete floor of Harry's lab was that Lash could diverge in personality and motivation from Lasciel.  If Lasciel had been able to check up on the process while still being locked in two circles and buried, I don't think Harry could have had as strong an influence over time on Lash as he clearly did.