A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Sorry neuro, but in your view of Uriel you see no reason for him to do anything and everything according to some master plan he hides from everyone because in true hes not such a nice guy...

You don't treat Bob's reaction at the end of SmF - directly warning Harry that Uriel is not a nice guy - as relevant information, then ?

[Paladino]

I see Bob's warning as that Uriel can be a very dangerous entity, and as a way to warn Harry that only because he's an archangel dosent mean he is all nice and sweet, that he can be harsh when he must/want to.

I take all we have seen from Uriel, is that as long as is inside his limitations, and it does not go against his/the WG plans and rules if he can help people he does.

The fun part of it, is that does not how much we try we could not understand him. I mean we could have a lot of information that points towards that he could be manipulating everyone in the series, but in his POV he's not, thats just the way he is.

You can take the GS passage when Harry demands from him to know how he friends were. And he says something like that
- Well, I belive that if we see from your perspective your right.
Not that he desagree from Harry, just that for who/what he is he never thougth on that possibility before. And the fact the he is willing to admit and act upon it, I belive shows part of his character.

[Rogue_Nine]

Neuro and I aren't trying to imply Uriel is evil, but think of him as a far more powerful and slightly more benign version of John Travolta's character in Swordfish, especially as far as the "You could cure all the world's diseases, but the cost is killing an innocent child.  Could you kill that child?" question Travolta poses goes.  Uriel is concerned with the GREATEST good, not just the greater good.  Given that he exists on multiple levels of reality simultaneously, has intellectus, and has watched the rise and fall of literally all of humanity, there's absolutely no way we can truly understand his motives.  Think about what Uriel said about the Fallen that whispered in Harry's ear.  Something that Harry (and most of us, myself included) missed there: Uriel has that same advantage, as far as understanding humanity goes.

As I said before, Uriel is as close as Jim can come to acting personally within the series, which is the same thing as saying Uriel kind of is Jim.  Assuming that Uriel has entirely benign motives, or that he's acting with only Harry's best interests at heart is worst than silly, it's verging on willful foolishness.  While Mab would throw Harry away in a heartbeat if it was necessary to fulfilling her purposes as the Winter Queen, Uriel is far more dangerous.  He'd likely allow Harry to become the scary evil tardbeast Harry is so afraid of becoming, IF it served the greatest possible good to allow that to happen.  Simply put: Uriel has supported Harry in the past, and has helped him, yes.  BUT (in huge flashing neon letters, that does not by any stretch of the imagination make Uriel Harry's friend or ally.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Neuro and I aren't trying to imply Uriel is evil

I think that does depend rather a lot on how you define evil.  I see it as entirely possible that Uriel's ultimate motives might not map well onto anything that could be described as good on the human scale.

As I said before, Uriel is as close as Jim can come to acting personally within the series, which is the same thing as saying Uriel kind of is Jim. 

I'm disinclined to see this, fwiw, because i am a long way from believing Uriel is categorically more informed and capable than Odin or the Mothers.

[Paladino]

Rogue, the nature of Uriel is a discussion I'm having for the third time with neuro I think.

So I can say I know how he neuro (sorry again) sees Uriel (and I'll boldly try to explain it):

We dont have enough information to know if Uriel is a good guy, and characters that we can "trust" like Bob (rarely wrong) and Mab (cant lie) have said he is dangerous. He has a goal that we have no idea at all and it's probally does not concede with Harry best interests. For all evidence we have he's not helping Harry, but manipulating him to achive his own goals.

Or something close to that, correct me if I'm wrong Neuro.

While, I belive that even if we dont have enough information, or ever will, to understand uriel motives, all the evidences we got of him so far shows a good character that will try to do the less damage possible to people in order to achive his goals/orders/master plan. And if it is inside his limitations there is a chance of helping the "good" guys he will. And I addmit he is "cold" enough to take some high risk tattics to achive his goals ( like sending harry out as a soul) thats why he is represented in the series as Heavens Spooky or Heavens Special Operation.

Ok, there are two really resumed descriptions...

[Rogue_Nine]

That's exactly what I was getting at.  Lash herself brought up in White Night that Harry couldn't possibly understand what she was created for:

"I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it."

Given that Lasciel was a lower order of angel, I'd imagine that Uriel's purpose is like that, only squared to the fifth dimension when it comes to Harry (or us) understanding it.

[Transkaren]

This is an interesting idea.  Of course, I subscribe to the opposite idea - that Lash isn't 100% gone, and has in fact been recovering slowly (and with Knighthood, completely).

Here's my thought process:

-Harry had access to Hellfire.  This is an incredibly rare resource; effectively only available to evil angels and those that access their powers.
-Harry has access to Soulfire.  This is an incredibly rare resource, from what we've heard.  Angels are confirmed to use it, and I don't recall anyone else short of god-like beings having had it.

I don't have the books handy, but Harry was told he was given Soulfire access because he resisted the shadow.  What if it's more than that?  What if, by resisting the shadow, he turned the shadow to the Light again, enough that the entity tried to sacrifice herself to save Harry?  The entity of Lash could have survived in the damaged brain - and has been trying to return.

Fastforward to Ghost Story, at the end.  Harry was kept alive by a group of 4 entities:  Demonreach kept him fed/watered, Mab gave him breath, Uriel protected his soul, and "the parasite" kept his heart beating.  Why would the Fallen that convinced him to kill himself do that?  It makes little to no sense - but if he had two fallen shadows?  One light (Lash), one dark (Lasciel)?  That would make some sense.

(Please, tear this theory apart)

[TheCuriousFan]

We have confirmation that Uriel was the one who granted Harry Soulfire for one.

We also have him possibly channeling Hellfire on the way to the White Council chambers in Changes.

[tinygargoyle]

Sorry to derail this but......

So. Your name is Lasciel. You’re a fallen angel imprisoned in a blackened denarius. You’ve just learned that the Harry Dresden has outsmarted your mental construct. You’ve lost face with your fellow evil cohorts, and Hell hath no fury like a Fallen scorned. What do you do next? Why, you make the wizard as miserable as possible, and then you kill him. How does one accomplish that?

Did anyone one else read this and think "whisper words into an author's ear"?

Otherwise... it is a great idea

[TheCuriousFan]

Did anyone one else read this and think "whisper words into an author's ear"?

So that's why Harry's life sucks so much.

[PirateJack]

It's a good theory, and fits well with canon. Uriel only had the power to act because the Shadow lied, which it didn't do in those three examples.

Also, it helps to know that Lasciel turned up in the last book, presumably as the Shadow. Lash also turned up and was likely the Parasite that kept Harry's heart going during his out of mortality experience. So we can assume that whispering into Harry's head may not have taken a mental link in order to occur.

[Cyberchihuahua]

Just to mention, after scorching Tessa in SF, Harry heard a whisper, like that of a calm old man, essentially laying out his current situation and telling him to run. This occurred while holding onto the handle of Fiddelichius.

[Mira]

You don't treat Bob's reaction at the end of SmF - directly warning Harry that Uriel is not a nice guy - as relevant information, then ?

  Uriel isn't evil, but he is an archangel, powerful beyond comprehension if he chose to use it.  Bob was merely warning Harry of that fact, you might say like Michael warning him about Mr Ferro.. 

[Gman]

  Uriel isn't evil, but he is an archangel, powerful beyond comprehension if he chose to use it.  Bob was merely warning Harry of that fact, you might say like Michael warning him about Mr Ferro..

I agree. As an example, was Gandolf in TLotR evil for getting Bilbo on the path to help the dwarves take out the Dragon and unite the Elves, Dwarves, Men vs the big Goblin army? Or Frodo going into Mordor to save the world? Would it have been better for Gandalf to leave them safe (for now) in the Shire then watch them die in the end when the world burns? Sure, Bilbo and Frodo were put at risk and danger but they were not forced to go and it helped countless lives and helped save the world. I view Uriel sort of doing the same thing with Harry. It has been mentioned in Ghost Story without Harry everyone on the planet is at risk, so Harry has to travel the path of danger to save the world and himself.

[ebliss1]

A well researched and thought out theory. Nicely done. There are, however, two holes I can put in it and both are somewhat subjective.

Hole One: Lasciel is a very ancient and very powerful entity. We have word from Lash that patience among the Fallen is something of an art form. If Lasciel is really miffed at this upstart mortal who thinks he can not only defy her, but can actually turn her shadow away from her, then she is going to want to make him suffer for a good long time. Lasicel is described as the Deceiver - a style that by nature involves stealth, planning, and time. She is not a thug or a brute like Magog who would be more inclined to smash an upstart mortal into dust as soon as possible. The couple years in the timeline you lay out with the whisperings seems far too short from plan inception to Harry's death to be believable as the ultimate vengeance dreamed up by a Fallen Angel.

Hole Two: In the instances you cited, other than some mild discomfort to Harry or brief despair, there was very little pain inflicted on Harry. The voices and the words spoken in your citations were not the most uplifting or positive things in the world, but they do not seem like the best suffering and personalized pain Lasciel was able to inflict on an unwitting mortal. Plus, Harry was able to overcome the words and use them for strength in the moments without too much effort.

To me, if Lasciel were really behind those voices, she would want to turn the knife in his belly for decades at least and really make those decades absolute torture for him for having the gall to think he could not only defy, but in a way defeat, one of the witnesses to Creation itself. Dresden is a wizard, and with their enhanced lifespans, she could stretch that torture out for centuries if she did it right. Nicodemus was hesitant to give Lasciel to Dresden, not only because she didn't always follow his lead, but because she was at least powerful enough to oppose him if she so chose. That would put her probably in the top 5 of the most powerful Fallen. With great power usually comes great ego, and for an affront to her like what Dresden did, the only viable solution for her would be a very long period of very awful torture. Not a few whispers of despair to convince him to kill himself a few short years of relative peace afterward. Actually, given that the words usually galvanized Harry into taking necessary actions, it almost seems like the work of Lash, taking on the role of that drill sergeant/high school football coach who likes to call people maggots and worthless and weak as motivation to prove him wrong.