Author Topic: DFRPG and FATE  (Read 10358 times)

Offline heathd666

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DFRPG and FATE
« on: September 11, 2011, 11:13:25 PM »
Hiya and afternoon/evening/morning depending on your zone

long time lurker with a few questions,

I really enjoy the books of Dresden Files, but I am not sure if I can run FATE so I figured i would post and see whether I can make my mind up. I have ran Savage Worlds for better part of 3 years and before that Palladium Megaverse, Old World of Darkness, Variouse forms of AD+D no 3rd or 4th ed though, Call of Cthulhu, and some 7th Sea and Shadowrun. Been gaming for the better part of 20+ years but I am having some issue with FATE.  I am not sure what it is. I have tried to read the main book Your Story, but I cant seem to make it to the end. I have tried several searches for variouse examples of play and downloaded and listened to podcasts by The walking Eye and Actual People Actual Play, for examples on playing. I guess what I am looking for is some knowledgable help in deciding if DFRPG is right for my group or even for me to try. At this years Gen Con I tried to stop by the open gaming room to try to talk to one of the people from Evil Hat but I missed them and on Sunday the whole family come with me and there was no way I was getting 15 people to stand around while I spent a 1/2 hr talking to one person. Currently I run a group of 9 to 12 people through Deadlands Reloaded a Savage Worlds setting. I dont plan on running that many people through DFRPG but I am not sure what an ideal number of people would be. From what I have gathered DFRPG is more of a story driven engine so this may be my problem as most of the games I have used have alot of crunch to them. Unfortunatly I feel lately I have been doing more of the Roll Playing then the Role Playing. Are there any examples somewhere I could start looking for on the different systems of DFRPG?  I guess I am a more visual sort of guy so I pick up on things alot faster by watching and participating in them than in reading them. I have all of the freebie case files and I think I am going to attempt me and one or two of my children to run through city creation and character creation to get a hang of some of the rules. In the back of the book Your Story are a couple of pages of combined charts are these the most important I will need for the game? I am thinking that Aspects are probably the thing I am having the most problems with understanding. I found a list of Aspects in the forum so I have lots to go off of. Any help with examples of the game play and perphaps character creation? In most of the games I have run its alot of descriptive talking and then some dice rolling but I am not sure about DFRPG. I believe it is more of a story format. Is it as a GM I just fade in do one "Scene" then skip to the next? Sorry for the questions but I appreciate any help sent my way.

sincerely
Heath Delashmit

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2011, 11:50:26 PM »
It would best be adapted to Old World of Darkness in my opinion. 

Though I can tell you as a player and GM of most of those systems (I maintain Old WoD is one of my favorites).  FATE works pretty well if you give it a shot and play test it.

Also, kudos to you on not upgrading to D&D 3rd ed. 3.5 or 4th!

Offline Haru

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 12:21:39 AM »
It is a bit hard to grasp at first, as the game is pretty different from usual rpg games, but that difference is what makes it great, once you get behind the idea.

The most important thing is to change your view of gaming. The fate system doesn't really try to simulate reality, it tries to create a story, an interactive novel, if you will. This is mostly done by aspects. Try to imagine a story. Most authors don't introduce something, unless it is going to be relevant in one way or another. That is pretty much what aspects are about.

I don't really know how to to explain it, because I can't really remember what it was that made me understand the concept of aspects. Keep reading, ask questions, I think it is mostly a learning by doing thing. A list of aspects is not really going to help you that much, because they are extremely versatile. Anything can be an aspect.

Scenes are where interesting things happen. The idea is that anything trivial happens "offscreen", between scenes, because they are considered boring. Again, think of a book, the Dresden Files especially. Trivial things are glossed over in a sentence or two, entire pages are dedicated to single really cool action.

There is a great sample combat, I always like to quote in these cases:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html

Maybe that can help you to get the first confusion sorted out. Creating a sample character for practice is always a good idea, if you like we can run through that together. Maybe you have a character from another system that we can convert to fate, so you have something to compare it to.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 12:46:39 AM »
Aspects are a combination of merits and flaws & Nature and Demeanor from White Wolf.

The concept of telling a story isn't odd to me I've run/played most games with my group like the way FATE encourages people to.  That required no change for me.  I always give input to GM's and vice versa.  The story shapes up from there.  I will admit we concentrate on plot and roleplaying more than system in most cases, but we can still get behind hacking up monsters and twinking out munchkin characters on occasion.

I highly encourage people to try this system out.  I play many systems, there is no reason others can't.  It's fun, different, and refreshing...not to mention customizable and fairly easy to house rule.

Offline zenten

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 01:29:55 AM »
Don't be intimidated by Fate.  It's basically two systems, the Fudge basic more traditional system, and then all the Aspects and Fate point stuff on top of that. Give it a go, make it clear to your players that you're still learning the system and will thus make mistakes, ask questions here, and have fun.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 01:34:19 AM »
Also, kudos to you on not upgrading to D&D 3rd ed. 3.5 or 4th!

Hey, at least 3.x took the mega-uber out of ranger/clerics.  4ed is heresy though for certain.

In the back of the book Your Story are a couple of pages of combined charts are these the most important I will need for the game?

Pretty much.  There aren't really many charts of any sort, those are more cheat-sheet rules summaries to keep you from having to look up the most common bits.

Here's some of the observations I've had on it since I started playing.  It's a very by the seat of your pants type game.  Creativity counts for a lot more than stats and dice rolls do.  Rules lawyers will hate it at first, then they'll figure out that they need a much less sound argument to argue Declarations, Aspect Invocations, Maneuvers, and so on.

It's very easy to forget to use Declarations, Aspects, and Maneuvers if you're coming from a dice and rules-heavy gaming system; right up until you see them used to stomp the complete crap out of a baddie with one action.  When play-testing it, make a point of using all three in a scene or three and see how much of a difference it makes.  You might even run through the same scene twice, once with the players having half a dozen fate points to spend and once with none.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 02:13:00 AM »
Hey, at least 3.x took the mega-uber out of ranger/clerics.  4ed is heresy though for certain.

I still prefer 2nd Ed.  I do not hate 3 or 3.X...4th....yes glad we agree on 4th.  I'll leave it at that.  I don't wanna cause derailing or offend anyone.

Offline TheMouse

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 02:35:49 AM »
The big thing to keep in mind about Fate is that it's not actually terribly out there in terms of game design.

The most basic thing is that you roll your dice, add your trait, then compare that to a difficulty or resisted roll. Everything builds on that. Which is RPG technology straight out of the 70s. (I'm not saying that's bad, mind you.)

Stunts are also pretty easy and well established. They're like feats from D&D. They're also sort of like Merits from oWoD. They give you a bit of a bonus in some way. Very easy.

Powers are just super-Stunts. Don't bother with how you get at the exact point total until later, once you're comfortable with the system. Just accept that they're super-Stunts conceptually. Easy as pie.

Now Aspects. Ooh, big and scary, they are! OK. Not really. They're just things about a character, place, or thing that is narratively true and is given mechanical heft. That's it. You know those yellow pages in the back you mentioned? You know the right hand one that has a little box titled, "Using Aspects"? That's most of your rules.

I mean, there are more rules to Aspects, but those are your basic ones. Those are like learning how to roll to see if you fix your car before learning to roll out a fight. So you learn those few rules (including perhaps a look at the beginning of the Aspects chapter for more clarity) and work with them for a bit. Then you add rules once you're comfortable with those basic ones.

Don't worry about the story aspect (pun!) of the game. That part will take care of itself. Do the char-gen and city setup stuff. Then start the game like you would any other RPG you've ever played. Do Aspect stuff when it seems appropriate, and remind your players to do the same.

Don't concern yourself with aggressively framing scenes or any of the stuff that the story-games crowd is concerned about. If you don't know what this means, then you're frankly better off than if you did know and were paranoid that you were screwing up.

In short: Play the game and have fun. Let the rest sort itself out.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2011, 03:45:12 AM »
Welcome to the forum, Heath.

I honestly don't really understand the whole "story based game" thing myself. But that hasn't given me any trouble playing DFRPG. It's surprisingly crunchy when you get down to it, and the mechanical balance is better than it looks.

And here are the play examples that I’ve found for section four. I want more.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-conflict
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-magical-fight
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-social-conflict
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-thaumaturgy

If those aren't enough, look at the PbP forum for games being played right now.

Offline sinker

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 05:09:52 AM »
To be honest I've found that most of the understanding of aspects comes when you see them in action. Don't be afraid to simply run something. I keep recommending Night Fears because it's setting light and easy to get into (we've all been a teen at one time or another... unless you haven't). The book often suggests that you start playing, and then if you discover that something doesn't work (like one of your aspects is less workable than you thought) to simply change it right then. I would simply jump in and explain to everyone that you're still learning as they are and that you'll all figure it out together.

As for aspects they are simply descriptors that one could apply to a situation, person, place or thing. At their most basic they are simply adjectives. If one can be helped by that adjective (Like trying to sneak down a "Dark" alleyway) then one can invoke for a benefit. If one might be hindered by it (Like trying to READ in a "Dark" alleyway) then one may be compelled for some detriment. There are specific benefits and detriments, however at it's core it really is that simple.

Offline Watson

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 11:01:16 AM »
As mentioned above, one the most important things for me, FATE is not trying to simulate the reality, but rather an interesting story, created by the GM and the players together. After I understood that, everything else more or less fell into place.

Another things that has been helpful for me (coming from a 25+ years of Basic Roleplaying/Call of Cthulhu) is that sometimes the player is looking at his character more from a “third person perspective” than “first person perspective” (or at least more than traditional games). What I mean by this is, for instance, consequences and concessions – this is a 100% a choice made by the player (the character is not involved). The player is choosing to accept a consequence or to concede, and thereby controlling the story. That is also why nameless NPC’s do not take consequences – not because they physically can’t take as much hits as the main bad guy, but because they are not really important for the story. When you start to look at the game system in this way, many things will start to get a lot more clear, at least it did so for me. Soon it will be my turn to try to get my players to understand that too…

Offline ARedthorn

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 01:26:24 PM »
With only one or two differences, you and I have played in most of the same systems (I've never tooled with 7th sea, and very much enjoy Mutants and Masterminds, which you didn't list)... Fate is the most recent addition to my systems kit, and frankly, so far, my favorite.

As someone else said- DFRPG is a combination of two systems- Fate and Fudge- that work well together. I like them both a LOT- Fudge, because it adds a nearly natural bell-curve to the random element (something very few games even try to do), and Fate because it lets things like character personality and mood and setting affect mechanics (and vice-versa) rather than leaving these elements independent (and often ignored).

I've gone so far as to add Fate (aspects and all the aspect-derived rules) to Mutants and Masterminds, and it's gone beautifully. Just about any system can adopt Fate safely, IMO.

So is it the Fate part of DFRPG, or the Fudge part that's throwing you? Or both?

Offline Taran

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 02:02:40 PM »
Do it!

I've done d20 systems, almost exclusively, for a long time and it took our group a bit of time to get away from the "I attack this round" that happens in d20 games to really describing combat and using the scenery (represented by aspects) to enhance a battle/scene.  The whole system has really opened my eyes to what can be done with a role-playing game.

Also, Character aspects are a perfect way to set up adventures and the fate point system is basically a mechanic for rail-roading players without actually having to rail-road - or, at the very least, having them feel grumpy for being railroaded.

We've gone back to a d20 Star Wars game and I can't get out of my head ways to "complicate" my characters situation, or think, "gee, a blaster would be useful right now, too bad I can't make a declaration."

I really think that if your group roll-plays more than role-plays then it will be a nice change and, at the very least, it will give them a different outlook on how you can play a game when you go back to other systems.

Offline Pbartender

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2011, 08:39:47 PM »
Here's something that really helped me and my players understand aspects...

Try thinking about them in terms of movie action-heroes.  When you think of any character from an iconic action movie -- Indiana Jones, John McClane, James Bond, etc. -- what are the things that make that character recognizable as that character?  Catch phrases, signature possessions, notable friends, unique personality quirks, etc. are all things that could be aspects for that character.

Han Solo, for example, might have aspects like:

The Millenium Falcon
Chewbacca's Life Debt
"Never Tell Me The Odds."
Imperial Entanglements
"Hokey Religions And Ancient Weapons Are No Match For A Good Blaster At Your Side, Kid."
In It For The Money
Prefers a Straight Fight
A Princess And A Guy Like Me...
"Who's Scruffy Looking?"

It really helped us understand not only how to pick aspects, but also how they get used (generally, they help a hero be better at what they're good at, help him get out of trouble, or help get him into trouble).

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: DFRPG and FATE
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2011, 09:24:42 PM »
I first have to say that I understand where people can be coming from, if they don't 'get' the Dresden Files RPG system.  I myself have been playing RPG systems of one sort or another since I started with Frank Mentzer's Red Box D&D Basic edition when it first came out.  From there I moved onto AD&D 1st ed. then 2nd ed. when that came out, then Mechwarrior, Rifts, Twilight 2000, Marvel Superheroes, LoR, MERP, Star Wars (WEG D6 version), and so on...

As one of the playtesters for the game, it was first a bit hard to get used to, since the game does tend to approach RPGs different than many of the games people might be used to playing.  Once you 'get' the DGRPG though, it is really quite easy.

Speaking broadly, there are two basic types of RPG players, there are the roll-players, and then the role-players. 
Generally, the roll-players are interested in fighting/defeating monsters, and looting treasure.  Their gaming concerns will revolve around what they need to roll succeed at a Skill check/challenge, and/or hit & damage a monster.  The current version of Dungeons & Dragons, D&D 4e, is a great example of a game geared towards that sort of play, as it has a very heavy emphasis on tactical combat, with much of the skills and abilities only really having relevance in combat.  In some respects, it almost seems to be like D&D reverting to its origins in Chainmail.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that players who are all about the tactical combat, killing monsters and looting treasure often don't like or understand DFRPG, and don't give it a chance as there is more to it than just combat.

It has been said, and I tend to agree, that the DFRPG is a storytelling RPG, and I feel that's true.  The game is very much story and character-driven, and as such those who can, or like to role-play tend to find DFRPG very enjoyable.

Mechanically, there can be a certain amount of 'crunchiness' to it, but the math is pretty basic and easy.  What needs to be remembered that rolls for success or failure are really only needed when success or failure will advance the story.

If you have a player who insists on their character attempting to steal something every time they go into a place, even a convenience store, that can quickly bog the game down.  Rather then require that every thing rolled, since the event itself doesn't matter, the GM can basically state whether there was success or failure, since stealing a candybar itself doesn't make much difference.

What helps to make the story relevant to the characters, as well as aiding (or hindering) the characters went they attempt something are the Aspects.  The easiest way I've found to think of Aspects, is that they are basic descriptors or catch-phrases about a character's identity, telling a little bit about who or what the character is.  As such, they tend to involve some themes central to a character, rather than inconsequential character information.

An example of an Aspect which would generally not typically matter much would be: Gets Seasick or Gets Airsick.

Honestly, as written neither of those are going to make much day to day difference to a character.

Now, if those Aspects were instead: Seasick shrimp boat captain, or Airline Pilot that gets Airsick, these themes now touch upon some central themes, namely a character's job, or perhaps what used to be their career.  Given that a job/career determines how a character could live and support themselves (and perhaps others) a character would have a great deal of involvement, as well as 'extra' knowledge from related subjects.  Take the current or ex-shrimp boat captain, it could be assumed that they are familiar with boats, shipping, and maritime traffic.  Given that they dealt with shrimp seafood, it could also mean that the character would then have knowledge of the seafood industry and/or marine life (i.e. "Hey, wait a minute, something about those tentacles doesn't look right..." and so on.

The key about Aspects from my perspective, is to have creative ones that can have broad, and/or multiple meanings, with preference given to those that are 'interesting'.

Lastly are some things you need to consider for yourself as well as your group.  If your character encounters a mystery or some sort of puzzle in-game, are you (A) the sort of player that would have your character gather clues while you try and solve it, or are you (B) the sort that prefers to roll dice to solve puzzles?

Also, are you going to be okay if your character or the group has (A) non-combat interactions with everyone they meet, or will you/they be (B) disappointed and/or bored if you character or group goes an entire game session without getting into combat?

If the style of play you or your group prefers is more A than B, then once you understand the difference with Dresden, and I admit it is a subtle one, then I think you'll like it.  If you honestly are more of a B-type gamer, then in my experience you won't enjoy the game as much.

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