[Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders

[Mira]

How so?  The WoJ quoted says Maggie's mom was a mortal (not vanilla mortal) and died in 1810.  Eb & Merlin were "young bucks" (about 50 years old) during the French-Indian war, and fought on opposite sides.  (That's recent WoJ contemplating writing a short story about it).  Especially if Maggie's mom was vanilla mortal, Eb would almost have to meet her in & around the war to have any hope of having a child with her. 

This is where problems arise, what the author actually writes in his books, verses what is said at some book signing etc.  This is one of the few cases where there is nothing to dispute the WOJ, because nothing is written about Maggie's mother, where and how Eb met her and why she died. I have called her a vanilla mortal, because I read that here.  Wizards live a long time, but they are still mortals, so to call Eb's wife a "mortal" doesn't say much about her except she wasn't one of the Fae, vampire,or a goddess of some kind who are immortal.

Secondly, if Maggie had to be born before 1810 (which is a given, since she can't have been born *after* her mother died), and she had Harry in 1973, (& Thomas apx 7 years earlier), then we have to accept that Maggie was still fertile at no less than 160. 

We have only the WOJ on any of this, it is odd that in the books there is no information on grandma, and very little about Margaret LeFay, I am willing to bet that both grandma and Margaret, will be heavily featured in some future book.  There is a key there, I believe Margaret's redemption [which very little is known, except that it happened with the meeting of Malcolm, or at that time] is key to why Harry is so important and why he is the way that he is. 

I'm not sure how to explain Luccio.  I'll have to go back and re-read that scene.  Iirc, it was more about desire/lust, than about reproduction.  But...  well, yeah, I need to re-read.  In any case, there can be absolutely no doubt that Maggie was fertile at that age.  (Biologically, my best guess is that use of magic keeps the eggs from deteriorating.  When I tried for children in my 40's, I conceived easily, but couldn't carry past 12 weeks - my eggs were too old.  If I was a Wizard, presumably I wouldn't have that problem.  And most women, oddly enough, have too many eggs left at the onset of menopause.  In the few years before it kicks in, the body begins throwing as many out as possible.)

Luccio may simply have meant sexual desire, but then again, that shouldn't stop just because sexual reproduction stops, it doesn't for ordinary vanilla females.  Since Luccio also hints that she was very sexually active as a young wizard, and at around 200 wasn't all that old before she got her new body, why did she stop having sex?  From what she said about Morgan etc, I think it may have been more choice, because in her position as captain of the Wardens, sex just caused too many hassels and conflicts.

Agree, completely.  In fact, there are two things that bother me about the time line, though I don't have any doubts about it's basic integrity.  During her dinner with Eb, she was clearly not being hunted.  After that dinner, the WC thought she'd come to grief in the Nevernever, (well, maybe except for Eb).  Five years pass, and when she turns on her (bad) allies, she's also hunted by the WC as a warlock.  This seems like a major inconsistency to me.  If they thought she was lost in the Nevernever, how could they decide she's a warlock?  And if she was a busy little law breaker, under Raith's control or not, how could they think she was lost in the Nevernever?

She may have still have been hunted, Eb being her father may have come to the dinner with the idea of burying the hatchet, since Margaret was with Lord Raith now, there might have been treaty considerations that put her beyond White Council justice for the moment. But I agree with you, there seems to be a conflict.

The other is her death.  I just can't see any new mother *wanting* to leave an infant child.  And some of the theories in this thread are WAY convoluted.  Still, it's clear that Malcolm and Harry were in some way her redemption.  And Occams razor suggests that she was shielding against Raith (& others) while on the run, but couldn't hold a shield and have a baby at the same time.

I don't think she wanted to die, but I also think she knew Lord Raith was after her.  Going back to my theory on this, Margaret knew about Lord Raith immunity to magic, given I think by his relationship with the Outsiders, she knew he would kill her if he could, so she planned her death curse accordingly, and somehow got  around the Outsider protection that he has.  She couldn't kill him outright, but she decommissioned him by blocking his ability to feed.  She was also protected by true love, so Lord Raith couldn't get her in his usual manner.

Last bit of my two cents - boy did I stretch it out - is that I'm definitely in the group that thinks Maggie was a thorn in the council's side, running around risking death in the Nevernever, talking to minor demons, but not crossing the line, for most of her life.

I can go along with that, several members of the Senior Council said as much, it is the same rap they have against Harry, mother and son both upset the established order of the White Council even though they never actually broke any laws, though I think it is clear that she did.

Oh and I think it was a brilliant guess that she's the one who found the doorway to Outside in the far reaches of the Nevernever...  though I'm not convinced she *did* much of anything with Outsiders.  Just by finding it, she made it vulnerable.

She may have found a doorway, and I do not think she did anything with Outsiders either.  However it is my theory, that she did discover a conspiracy afoot, the Black Council in cooperation with the Outsiders to over run the White Council and then the world.  I think the Outsiders saw Justin as an decent teacher of Elaine and Harry, but never trusted Justin because of his background as a Warden for the White Council.  HWWB was testing Harry, with the idea that either Harry would pass or be eliminated, but what he hadn't counted on was Harry's strong moral sense of right and wrong.  When HWWB murdered the poor clerk in such a horrible way, Harry's desire to protect the innocent kicked in and he kicked HWWB's butt to his surprise.  Harry wasn't just 16, he was barely 16, this happened in mid-November, Harry had just turned 16 on Halloween.

[LordDresden]

So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".

The problem is the context of Luccio's comments.  That's what makes it so hard to reconcile wiht the other accounts from the other people.  You can do it, you can put interpretations on the other versions, and Luccio's, that will make them fit together...but you have to stretch things considerably because of the context.

The kind of 'misguided idealist' that Luccio described isn't the kind that would produce the accounts we get from Nicodemus and Thomas and Lea and Chaunzoggoroth and Eb.  It's not Kumori's kind of idealist.  Luccio talked about the Wardens being assigned to watch Margaret, and spoke of her disappearing for 5 years to be with Lord Raith, but there was no hint of anything about her being a warlock.  At all.

And Harry's reaction is just as weird, which makes me consider the whole conversation weird.  Even if what Harry thought he knew was all wrong, it's still what he thought he knew, you'd expect him to react to what Luccio was saying, at least in his own thoughts.  But he doesn't.

Imagine for a moment that you've spent your entire adult life combating some ghastly practice, let's say slave trafficing and organ legging and murder.  You worked against it as a private citizen in your younger days, and became successful enough at it that the FBI recruited you to do it as an agent.  Working to shut down the people doing it, and protect others from them, is what you've pretty much dedicated your life to doing.

Further assume that your mother, who died in childbirth, was as far as you know heavy into that very activity, she was a murderess, a slave trader, an organ legger, she associated with the worst criminals on the Most Wanted List on a regular basis, as far as you knew.  Your older brother, who can remember her, gives an account that corroborates this.  Some of the criminals you've taken on made references to working with her, some of the older FBI guys around you remember her as well, and their accounts are unpleasant and disturbing and match what you had heard elsewhere.

An old friend of your mother's, who has a psychological block that prevents her from lying, gives you an account that, again, tallies with the bad stuff.

But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.

Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?!  That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.

Weird.

[Mira]

 Problem is, Harry knows almost nothing about his mother, he knows from the brief soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie didn't seem like a wicked woman.  Harry had a chance to ask Lea questions about his mother, but little information is given.   However bad she appears to be, she never was so far gone that the love of a and for a very good man couldn't redeem her.

He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction.  It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather.  Eb has said that Harry is a lot like his mother, but still he has very little of substance to say about her.  Margaret LeFay by in large remains a mystery.

[flyregr]

Maggie seems to have been somewhat of a free spirit in the early days and seems to have gotten darker and became a dangerous warlock at some point.  She was a feared witch according to some accounts and even her apparition in the soulgaze between Thomas and Harry called her arrogant.  Regarding the meeting between Eb, Lord Raith, Arianna, and her, it could have happened after the death warrant was established.  Eb implies that he can disregard the Council's decisions when it comes to family in Blood Rites after the raid on Mavra's compound, saying he should have killed Harry but what is the point of being able to disregard the laws and not use it.

He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction.  It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather.

After Ghost Story I think Harry's opinion on monsters is a little different seeing as at "Inez's" insistence he is a monster himself.  He also has resolved the fact that Eb is the Blackstaff of the Council.  Regarding his mother though seems like he wants her to be a good person despite the views of others.

[Mira]

After Ghost Story I think Harry's opinion on monsters is a little different seeing as at "Inez's" insistence he is a monster himself.  He also has resolved the fact that Eb is the Blackstaff of the Council.  Regarding his mother though seems like he wants her to be a good person despite the views of others.

It took a while, Harry didn't speak to Eb for quite a while, Harry felt betrayed, it was a trust issue.  Harry saw Eb as the most ethical man he ever knew, that he represented everything that was good about magic. Then to find out that Eb was the Blackstaff, the White Council's assassin, that hurt him greatly. 

In the soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie called herself arrogant, not Harry. 

[thelordbeans]

Read the OP, haven't read anything else yet, I thought the theory was really cool, and I especially liked the possible Third Eye / Kumori connection.

Anyway, I wanted to mention an idea that I've had a while, in case somebody sees it connecting to the theory in a good way.

The parallel universes that Jim has described and that we will explore (or at least get a taste of) in Mirror Mirror - THAT is the Outside.

[AcornArmy]

The parallel universes that Jim has described and that we will explore (or at least get a taste of) in Mirror Mirror - THAT is the Outside.

I think that could be it, too. It makes a kind of sense to me.

But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.

Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?!  That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.

Weird.

I refer you to the end of this post, and all of this post.

[thelordbeans]

The problem is the context of Luccio's comments.  That's what makes it so hard to reconcile wiht the other accounts from the other people.  You can do it, you can put interpretations on the other versions, and Luccio's, that will make them fit together...but you have to stretch things considerably because of the context.

The kind of 'misguided idealist' that Luccio described isn't the kind that would produce the accounts we get from Nicodemus and Thomas and Lea and Chaunzoggoroth and Eb.  It's not Kumori's kind of idealist.  Luccio talked about the Wardens being assigned to watch Margaret, and spoke of her disappearing for 5 years to be with Lord Raith, but there was no hint of anything about her being a warlock.  At all.

And Harry's reaction is just as weird, which makes me consider the whole conversation weird.  Even if what Harry thought he knew was all wrong, it's still what he thought he knew, you'd expect him to react to what Luccio was saying, at least in his own thoughts.  But he doesn't.

Imagine for a moment that you've spent your entire adult life combating some ghastly practice, let's say slave trafficing and organ legging and murder.  You worked against it as a private citizen in your younger days, and became successful enough at it that the FBI recruited you to do it as an agent.  Working to shut down the people doing it, and protect others from them, is what you've pretty much dedicated your life to doing.

Further assume that your mother, who died in childbirth, was as far as you know heavy into that very activity, she was a murderess, a slave trader, an organ legger, she associated with the worst criminals on the Most Wanted List on a regular basis, as far as you knew.  Your older brother, who can remember her, gives an account that corroborates this.  Some of the criminals you've taken on made references to working with her, some of the older FBI guys around you remember her as well, and their accounts are unpleasant and disturbing and match what you had heard elsewhere.

An old friend of your mother's, who has a psychological block that prevents her from lying, gives you an account that, again, tallies with the bad stuff.

But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.

Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?!  That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.

Weird.

I don't see any discrepancy between the accounts.

Just look at what people say about Harry!

Luccio (Dead Beat): The Council has been betrayed, Dresden. And you are the most infamous wizard in it. There are many who have spoken out against you. Many who say that you began the war with the Red Court intentionally so that you could create an opportunity to bring about the fall of the Council... I think that you do not realize your own reputation. You have overcome more enemies and battled more evils than most wizards a century your senior. And times are changing. There are more young wizards attaining membership to the Council than ever before--like Ramirez and his companions, there. To them, you are a symbol of defiance to the conservative elements of the Council, and a hero who will risk his life when his principles demand it.

Eldest Gruff (Small Favor): "We hear tales of thee, young wizard... We too like stories about... Underdogs."

And I'm looking for one particular quote that I can't find because I can't remember who said it, but I think it was a girl and she was telling Harry straight to his face the many different things she's heard about him, but she doesn't really care because they can deal anyway

And then there's whatever was said in Side Jobs, which I don't have access to

Harry would have had no reason to think anything strange about Luccio's account beyond what he actually did think: "Oh shit, possible info about my mom incoming!" He knows that every account he has heard or will hear about his mother is just hearsay, and a dangerous witch on bad terms with the White Council and good terms with possibly many nasty creatures with an amazing knowledge of the Nevernever who spent several years missing... is INCREDIBLY mysterious. You can't expect any sort of consistency from that... and actually, we have had quite a bit of consistency

[Gman]

My guess about Maggie is she was an idealist who wanted change in the WC. Some may have been doable good ideas, others not so much. She was contacted and recruited by agents of the BC such as King Raith and then told half truths and lies about making the world a better place. By the time she found out the truth she was in too deep and she was going to hunted down from everyone from the Wardens to the Black Council.

[LordDresden]

Problem is, Harry knows almost nothing about his mother, he knows from the brief soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie didn't seem like a wicked woman.  Harry had a chance to ask Lea questions about his mother, but little information is given.   

Each one gave a tidbit, but there were several tidbits and they added up to a nasty picture.

However bad she appears to be, she never was so far gone that the love of a and for a very good man couldn't redeem her.

Which fits well with Harry's psychological romanticism, but doesn't really change what he heard from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, Eb, and Lea.  And what they told him did add up to an evil woman.

He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction.  It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather.  Eb has said that Harry is a lot like his mother, but still he has very little of substance to say about her. 

Eb said that she broke the First Law, among others, and was using the Council's Laws against it.  In short, that she was a warlock. That's a pretty substantive claim, if true.

Nicodemus claimed to have known her, fondly, and her ability to create something like a baby version of a mindshadow tends to support that claim's veracity.  That's substantive, too.

Thomas didn't know much, but what he'd heard and remembered added up to, in his own words about their mother, "...one Hell of a dangerous witch."

And so on.  Harry had several sources and though each one gave him small pieces, the pieces added up to a picture.  Luccio's account is definitely the odd one out.

[LordDresden]

I mean, that situation is bound to be awkward. What would you have said if you were in her place? Would you have gone off on how much of a warlock she was, when you knew that wasn't what your date wanted to know about their mother?

Given their background, the respect she supposedly has for him, and the stakes of their world?  Yeah, I'd expect the straight truth.

 Hell, Luccio may have still been sort of hoping to get laid that night. You have to keep things in perspective.

I would expect that sort of thinking from a 20-something trying to get laid, yes.  But Luccio is a grownup, and is supposed to see Harry as the same.

[AcornArmy]

I would expect that sort of thinking from a 20-something trying to get laid, yes.  But Luccio is a grownup, and is supposed to see Harry as the same.

Well, the trying to get laid part was mostly a joke. Although, Luccio was the one to point out what a roomy back seat the Silver Wraith had, so who knows?

Given their background, the respect she supposedly has for him, and the stakes of their world?  Yeah, I'd expect the straight truth.

Luccio was telling Harry about who Maggie was, not just facts about things she'd done. And that was what Harry wanted to know, and because Luccio cared about him, she understood that and was trying to help. Much the same way that Murphy might have done in her place, I'd imagine.

Other people have told Harry, and us, such things as, "Maggie LeFay was acquainted with this person and this person and this person, and she committed this crime," and then they've left it to Harry, and us, to draw our own conclusions from those statements. Luccio is the only one yet to say, "Maggie was like this and like this and like this, and she loved these things, and believed in these things." Luccio is the only one who has given us any information at all about why Maggie LeFay behaved the way she did, rather than simply pointing out isolated facts and letting us draw our own conclusions from them. Dismissing everything she said just because it seems somehow out of place from your point of view seems like a huge mistake, to me.

Drawing conclusions based entirely on who someone knows and a few things that person has done can lead to terribly flawed results. Here, I can prove it:

"Harry Dresden is acquainted with multiple demons, has summoned a demon on multiple occasions, and struck bargains with this demon more than once. He is intimately acquainted with a Fallen angel, and has received multiple forms of power from that Fallen angel. He is acquainted with several Knights of the Blackened Denarius, has met Denarians several times, and has participated in deals with them on more than one occasion.

Dresden is guilty of breaking the First Law. He has done so at least once, and many on the White Council believe he may have done so more than once. He has summoned a zombie to the certain knowledge of no less than five Wardens, but was able to escape execution by way of a technicality.

He has many times been seen in the company of various members of the White Court, is known to speak an ancient language spoken among their ruling families, and has struck bargains with the ruler of that Court on more than one occasion.

Dresden is known to have had many dealings with the most powerful of the Unseelie fae, and is the personal champion of Mab, the Queen of wicked faeries herself."

--yet all of that would not give someone a very accurate idea of who Harry is at all. Ebenezer, Maggie's father, is the person who taught Harry how to use magic for the right reasons, and what those reasons were. He taught Harry by behaving as an example of the virtues he expected Harry to live by. And yet, Ebenezer is also the Blackstaff, and he has apparently used magic to commit terrible atrocities with magic, in service to the White Council. Both of those behaviors are a true part of who Ebenezer is, despite the fact that they seem to contradict one another.

Given that Harry is as complex as he is, and that Ebenezer seems to be just as complex, why should we expect Eb's daughter, Harry's mother, to be easily defined or simple of nature? According to Luccio, Maggie was at least as smart as Eb or Harry, and maybe smarter. The long-term planning Maggie did on Harry's behalf is a pretty good confirmation of this, in my opinion. So why should she be simple, when neither her son nor her father are?

Also, Luccio's description of Maggie fits what we saw from Maggie's personality imprint in a way that the raw facts from Chauncy or Nicodemus, or even Ebenezer, did not. And since that's the only time we've ever had the chance to see Maggie in action, it seems like one of the more vital sources of information on the subject.

[Mira]

Other people have told Harry, and us, such things as, "Maggie LeFay was acquainted with this person and this person and this person, and she committed this crime," and then they've left it to Harry, and us, to draw our own conclusions from those statements. Luccio is the only one yet to say, "Maggie was like this and like this and like this, and she loved these things, and believed in these things." Luccio is the only one who has given us any information at all about why Maggie LeFay behaved the way she did, rather than simply pointing out isolated facts and letting us draw our own conclusions from them. Dismissing everything she said just because it seems somehow out of place from your point of view seems like a huge mistake, to me.

Drawing conclusions based entirely on who someone knows and a few things that person has done can lead to terribly flawed results. Here, I can prove it:

"Harry Dresden is acquainted with multiple demons, has summoned a demon on multiple occasions, and struck bargains with this demon more than once. He is intimately acquainted with a Fallen angel, and has received multiple forms of power from that Fallen angel. He is acquainted with several Knights of the Blackened Denarius, has met Denarians several times, and has participated in deals with them on more than one occasion.

Dresden is guilty of breaking the First Law. He has done so at least once, and many on the White Council believe he may have done so more than once. He has summoned a zombie to the certain knowledge of no less than five Wardens, but was able to escape execution by way of a technicality.

He has many times been seen in the company of various members of the White Court, is known to speak an ancient language spoken among their ruling families, and has struck bargains with the ruler of that Court on more than one occasion.

Dresden is known to have had many dealings with the most powerful of the Unseelie fae, and is the personal champion of Mab, the Queen of wicked faeries herself."

--yet all of that would not give someone a very accurate idea of who Harry is at all. Ebenezer, Maggie's father, is the person who taught Harry how to use magic for the right reasons, and what those reasons were. He taught Harry by behaving as an example of the virtues he expected Harry to live by. And yet, Ebenezer is also the Blackstaff, and he has apparently used magic to commit terrible atrocities with magic, in service to the White Council. Both of those behaviors are a true part of who Ebenezer is, despite the fact that they seem to contradict one another.

Given that Harry is as complex as he is, and that Ebenezer seems to be just as complex, why should we expect Eb's daughter, Harry's mother, to be easily defined or simple of nature? According to Luccio, Maggie was at least as smart as Eb or Harry, and maybe smarter. The long-term planning Maggie did on Harry's behalf is a pretty good confirmation of this, in my opinion. So why should she be simple, when neither her son nor her father are?

Also, Luccio's description of Maggie fits what we saw from Maggie's personality imprint in a way that the raw facts from Chauncy or Nicodemus, or even Ebenezer, did not. And since that's the only time we've ever had the chance to see Maggie in action, it seems like one of the more vital sources of information on the subject.
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neurovore: It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.  The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

Excellent points.