[Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders

[svb1972]

Luccio is being mind-scr00ged by the Black Council at this point.  There are many possible options for what's going on.

1) Luccio is being edited.
2) Ebenezar is Black Council and lying to Harry.
come to mind as the two most likely.
The problem comes from the fact that Morgan is all "like Mother like Son."  "Your mother was a Warlock and SO ARE YOU."  Is something Morgan implies at least once, if not multiple times.

Luccio's account is weird, and Harry ignoring it is doubly weird.  Harry could be wishful thinking it.  hard to say.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Luccio makes a reference to the time when Margaret disappeared for 5 years, presumably that was the period when she was with Raith, or at least that's what Luccio says to Harry.  According to Ebenezar, the hunt for Margaret by the Wardens was during and after that period, and that is precisely what Luccio doesn't mention.  Luccio acts upset by Margaret's selfishness with regard to Thomas, but totally ignores her warlock-dom.  Which is...kind of freakin' odd for the Captain of the Wardens.

Might we want to file this with the more numerous internal inconsistencies between GS and the rest of the series as clues to something Jim is doing deliberately ?

[knnn]

I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal

Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the only connection between Justin and Lord Raith was the fact that they both called up HHWB.  Given that GS sheds some doubt on the whole "Justin calling up HHWB", is this point still strongly suggested?

Might we want to file this with the more numerous internal inconsistencies between GS and the rest of the series as clues to something Jim is doing deliberately ?

Second the motion.

[AcornArmy]

No, it blatantly contradicts it.

According to Ebenezar, Margaret was a warlock on the run from the Council, and under a literal death sentence.

According to Luccio, Margaret was a misguided idealist who the Wardens had been assigned to watch, and nothing more.  No mention of her being a warlock, no mention of a death sentence from Luccio.
....
Further, the accounts other than Luccio's say that the dark period of her life came first, then, at the very end, came something better.

I think you're taking much too strict a view of the mentions of Maggie's life, and saying, "Here she was evil, here she was good." It was probably never that cut and dried. Maggie lived for at least 160 years, according to WoJ about the time of her mother's death.  Early on she lived with Ebenezer. Was she evil then? She ran off and started learning things on her own, doing things on her own, and earned the name of "LeFay." Clearly, other wizards had contact with her during that period, because they knew who she was and what she could do well enough to give her a nickname. Was she evil then?

According to Ebenezer's own words, he had dinner with Maggie, Lord Raith, and Duchess Arianna, shortly after Maggie started seeing Lord Raith. Was she being hunted by the White Council then?

You are not taking everything into account. You're saying that Maggie may have been decent at the end of her life, but before then, she must have been evil, or at least worthy of being classified as a warlock. This just doesn't make sense. Maggie lived a long time, and for most of that time, she was probably a pain in Council's ass, but not actually considered a warlock. This fits with both Ebenezer's story and what Luccio said. She then took up with Raith, began taking a darker path, and things came to a head with the White Council. We don't know how long she was with Lord Raith, but we do know that that period took up the end of her life, except for a couple of years at the very end. And those last couple of years she changed her mind and tried to correct some of her mistakes, as she told Harry in his soulgaze with Thomas.

It seems to me that the simplest and most correct way to look at Maggie's life, given that she was a human being and not a piece of litmus paper, is to think of her as being somewhat wild and gray-tinged for most of her life, then hooking up with Raith and turning darker, and finally coming to her senses at the very end and trying to correct her earlier mistakes.

Luccio seems to be talking about only a part of Maggie Sr.'s life, the part when Luccio knew her. The stories seem completely compatible.

This is exactly what I was saying.

I don't think Luccio had any reason in the context of that particular conversation to mention "Oh by the way, after your Mom discovered she couldn't change the WC, she went psycho and we had to put a death sentence on her." In fact, I think it would have been rather insulting to Harry, because it would have been suggesting he was headed down the same path.

Exactly, I agree entirely. They were seeing each other romantically. Why bother bringing up the fact that his mother was considered a warlock whom the Council wanted dead? Luccio was answering his question in the way that he really meant, which was a request for information about who his mother was, not about the information on her Most Wanted poster. Despite whatever else Maggie may have been, she was his mother, and he never had the chance to know her. Luccio was trying to help fill in that gap.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the only connection between Justin and Lord Raith was the fact that they both called up HHWB.  Given that GS sheds some doubt on the whole "Justin calling up HHWB", is this point still strongly suggested?

IIRC, Eb refers to Justin duMorne as an associate of Maggie's in BR.

[knnn]

IIRC, Eb refers to Justin duMorne as an associate of Maggie's in BR.

{quick look up on Amazon "look inside".}

You do remember correctly.  Thanks.

[AcornArmy]

Luccio makes a reference to the time when Margaret disappeared for 5 years, presumably that was the period when she was with Raith, or at least that's what Luccio says to Harry.  According to Ebenezar, the hunt for Margaret by the Wardens was during and after that period, and that is precisely what Luccio doesn't mention.  Luccio acts upset by Margaret's selfishness with regard to Thomas, but totally ignores her warlock-dom.  Which is...kind of freakin' odd for the Captain of the Wardens.

Myself, I see this weirdness as entirely the result of the two of them being in a car, as a couple who are dating and sleeping together, and Luccio finding herself in the position of having to talk to her boyfriend about his mother, whom he never knew and knows little about, when Luccio herself was the person who was in charge of hunting the woman down and executing her at the end of her life. The weirdness isn't that Luccio is the Captain of the Wardens and she's saying the things she's saying, it's because she's the Captain of the Wardens, and she's trying to figure out how to talk about the subject without it turning into a whole huge thing about her trying to execute her boyfriend's mom.

I mean, that situation is bound to be awkward. What would you have said if you were in her place? Would you have gone off on how much of a warlock she was, when you knew that wasn't what your date wanted to know about their mother? Hell, Luccio may have still been sort of hoping to get laid that night. You have to keep things in perspective.

[Winter Warden]

Alright, I'm going to sidestep the whole was Maggie evil for most of her life or not debate, as I think that we are a bit short on evidence to reach a conclusion, in favour of trying to set up an approximate Maggie Dresden timeline based upon what we know in order to clarify some of these issues.

According to the DF timeline thread, Maggie is over 100 years old when she becomes involved with Lord Raith.  Thus, as Thomas was born 34-35 years pre-SF and she was presumably involved with Lord Raith at least a couple of years before his birth, let's say that she hooked up with Raith 37-40 years pre-SF, as, if Raith is a WC vampire, then I would assume that they were having a lot of sex.  So, as a ballpark figure, let's say that she was born around 150 years pre-SF (I know that you said it should be more like 180-200 years per-SF AA, but I'm not familiar with the WoJ you are citing).

~ 150 BSF
Maggie born

~ 140 BSF
Maggie manifests a talent around the same age as Harry according to WoJ, so probably she's 10-12 years old.  Presumably, as she was was Ebenezar's daughter, he finds out fairly quickly and soon takes her as an apprentice.

~ 135-130 BSF
Maggie's apprenticeship ends.  Feeling resentful of Eb's strict training, she sets off one her own.

Between 130 BSF and 50 BSF
At some point in this period, Maggie gains knowledge of the Ways surpassing that of any other living wizard, so she is probably spending a lot of time there at some point.  If her abilities were well-known enough that people were calling her Maggie LeFay, she presumably had them at least 10 years before she went warlock.  most likely, if she came to be widely known by this name, she had this ability far longer (maybe by 100 BSF).  In this period, she is not being hunted by the wardens.  We don't know whether she is breaking the laws without anyone else noticing, but, at the very least, she is reveling in what the council considers grey magic, including (probably) things like summoning demons, as Chaunzaggoroth says that "Many in the underworld were … familiar with her."  To be honest, she might also been involved with Raith later in this period, as I am not aware of any source which tells us when their relationship began, so take the later date with a grain of salt.  According to Luccio, she advocated for change in the White Council during this period, wanting the Laws of Magic to embrace concepts of justice.  Presumably she was also associated with DuMorne in this period, as, since DuMorne was a known associate of Maggie and a warden, they must have met before she was a fugitive from White Council justice.   

~ 40 BSF
Maggie becomes involved in a relationship with Raith.  As I have said, this date may be off, so take it with a grain of salt.

Sometime around the beginning of Maggie/Raith and before Thomas' birth (so before 35 BSF)
“A dinner. Maggie—my Maggie—asked me to a dinner. She’d just taken up with that Raith bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn’t warn me. They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”

Maggie is involved in some sort of scheme with Raith which Eb refuses to support and discourages (this could be something to do with the Black Council, although that is, of course, speculation).  It is worth noting, however, that as Eb is not under orders to kill Maggie during this period, she cannot have openly broken the Laws of Magic yet (although, as noted earlier, she might have done so secretly).  She might also have done terrible things prior to this point which did not violate the Laws of Magic, as Chaunzaggoroth says that "her coming was awaited with great anticipation."  Again, this is just speculation, as she might have not done anything truly horrible until a little bit later.  We have scant evidence one way or the other.

34-35 BSF
Thomas is born.  Maggie imprisoned in the Chateau Raith.  Most of the council believes that she has run afoul of something in the NeverNever according to Luccio (as Luccio says that she disappeared for 4-5 years, she cannot have been imprisoned too long before Thomas' conception).

29-30 BSF 
Maggie escapes Raith when Thomas is about 5 years old.  According to Eb, "she turned away from her previous associates-including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."

28-29 BSF
Maggie meets Malcolm Dresden.

27-28 BSF
Maggie is killed by Raith.


Thinking about this timeline, two important points occur to me.  Firstly, if Maggie redeemed herself, then she was only doing so in those last two years when she was on the run.  Moreover, as Eb "had [his] orders" regarding her in this period, but was free to meet with her when she began her relationship with Raith, Maggie must have only begun openly breaking the Laws of Magic while she was with Raith (and before Thomas was born, as the White Council did not know where she was after Thomas' birth).  According to Eb, "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others," so Maggie must have been a pretty busy law breaker while she was together with Raith.

Also, I know some people consider Luccio's testimony suspect, but I think that this timeline is consistent with everything we have heard from all the various sources of information on this subject.  Please correct me if I am mistaken.





   

[AcornArmy]

According to the DF timeline thread, Maggie is over 100 years old when she becomes involved with Lord Raith.  Thus, as Thomas was born 34-35 years pre-SF and she was presumably involved with Lord Raith at least a couple of years before his birth, let's say that she hooked up with Raith 37-40 years pre-SF, as, if Raith is a WC vampire, then I would assume that they were having a lot of sex.  So, as a ballpark figure, let's say that she was born around 150 years pre-SF (I know that you said it should be more like 180-200 years per-SF AA, but I'm not familiar with the WoJ you are citing).

I got it from here:

Q: "Are we ever going to meet Margaret LeFey's Mother?"
A: "She was a mortal, and died somewhere around 1810. We'd only meet her if we go back to the French and Indian War [referencing his earlier statement that he has considered writing books from back during the French and Indian War"

After which I said:

So, if we assume 1810 as the last year Maggie LeFay could have been born, and sometime around 1970 or so as the year she died, then Maggie LeFay was, at minimum, 160 years old at the time of her death. She could've been as much as 80 or 90 years older than that, but she couldn't have been any younger.

[svb1972]

Maggie LaFey died in 1972.
We know this, because 1972 is Harry and Jim's (and mine) birth year.

[AcornArmy]

Maggie LaFey died in 1972.
We know this, because 1972 is Harry and Jim's (and mine) birth year.

But Jim has said before that Harry is about one year behind him in age, and GS is probably stretching that gap out more. It may be 1973, which is my birth year.

[svb1972]

But Jim has said before that Harry is about one year behind him in age, and GS is probably stretching that gap out more. It may be 1973, which is my birth year.

Get your dirty 1973 paws off my Harry! MIne mine!..

uh.. sorry.. I just had a Mollyment.

Maggie Sr's Minimum age is 162 years old, when Harry was born.  Probably about 7 years before that when Thomas was born.  Those with more amazing memory can probably tell us how old Thomas was when she left?  I seem to remember it was about 5, but I'm not sure.

[Winter Warden]

So, if we assume 1810 as the last year Maggie LeFay could have been born, and sometime around 1970 or so as the year she died, then Maggie LeFay was, at minimum, 160 years old at the time of her death. She could've been as much as 80 or 90 years older than that, but she couldn't have been any younger.

Huh.  Thanks.  That`s interesting.  In fact, the quote reveals that Maggie must have been born considerably before 1810, as the French-Indian War went from 1754-1763 (and really it was all over by 1760 in North America).  If Jim wanted to write Maggie`s mother into this war, she must be at least, say, 20 by the time the war`s essentially over in 1760, or else she would struggle to play a significant role in the story.  Theoretically, she might have had Maggie as late as when she was 50 years old (1790 at the latest), although this would be very uncommon in this time period.  Generally, women had children in their 20`s or 30`s (or earlier) making a far more likely birth age for Maggie no later than about 1780.  So, I would guess that Maggie was approaching 200 when she had Harry (which is really weird, but I guess that that`s wizards for you).

Of course, while interesting, Maggie`s age does not detract from my main interest in the timeline, which is that it seems that Maggie could only have been openly violating the Laws of Magic between some time soon after starting her relationship with Raith and when Thomas was born.  As I stated, I am not sure when her relationship with Raith actually started, although I cannot imagine it lasted for a long time, but it seems curious that she would start openly breaking the Laws of Magic in this period.  Regardless of what she was doing, I cannot imagine that she would benefit from having the White Council know about it, and it seems unlikely that it was just a mistake such as, for example, accidentally killing a mortal with a fire spell while panicked, as Eb specifically states that "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others."  You could accidentally violate one law, but accidentally violating multiple laws seems a bit of a stretch. 

If we accept that Maggie would have no good reason to want the council to know that she was breaking the laws, then one wonders how the council found out.  Did a wizard stumble upon her breaking the Laws of Magic by accident, was she placed under more intense scrutiny because of her association with Raith, or did she tip off Eb that something was going on at that dinner, which he then investigated, revealing the truth?  To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time.   
 

[AcornArmy]

To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time.   

Well, we know that Raith had some control over her, even though he never managed to control her completely. He may have had a detrimental effect on her judgement. Or, just as likely, something involving messing around with Outsiders caused her to become more reckless and violent. Of course, that last one is contingent upon whether or not you think Maggie was part of the group that originally started summoning Outsiders back onto the Earthly plane, or into the Nevernever near Earth.

Some people have mentioned that they can see Maggie being a part of the group, but not founding it. To that, I would ask how they think Outsiders started coming back into the universe, if the Gatekeeper is Gatekeeping properly. Neither the White Council nor the Senior Council have made any accusations toward Rashid that we've heard about, and yet, Outsiders have fought beside Red Court vampires multiple times. They've been getting in somehow, but the Gatekeeper remains at his post as usual. So, it seems to me that the Senior Council must think the Outsiders are somehow getting around the Gatekeeper, rather than coming in with his help.

And if you accept that the Outer Gates are probably thin points between Earth's universe and the Outside, or the Nevernever and the Outside, then someone must have found a thin spot that the Gatekeeper wasn't guarding. Enter Maggie LeFay, who could apparently hunt down a path from almost anywhere to almost anywhere else. She just seems like the most obvious candidate for that type of thing.

When you add in the fact that she was attached to Lord Raith, that she was friends with Justin DuMorne, and that both Raith and DuMorne called on He Who Walks Behind-- it seems like an obvious next step that Maggie must have been the one to find an undiscovered Outer Gate. And if her personality was anything like Harry's or Ebenezer's, then she was probably one of the more powerful personalities in the group, even if she was somewhat under Lord Raith's control.

The descriptions of Maggie make her seem more formidable than DuMorne, and she would obviously know more about magic than Raith. Formidable + knowledgeable + a powerful personality = someone likely in charge, or near the top of the hierarchy, imho.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Not in the DV.  They are real things with real consequences, esp. when magic gets mixed in.

If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul.  It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells.  But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist.  She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.

Everything they do on a daily basis has consequences on their souls.  Doesn't make it a fact rather than an opinion.  At most it's the opinion of TWG.  Which, while pretty weighty, does not make it fact.

As to turning into a monster, I think Inez already covered that for me.

This is why Luccio's account doesn't make sense, and why Ebenezar's does.

Remember, if Luccio is right, then there's no reason Margaret couldn't have turned to Ebenezar and the White Council for help and protection when she was on the run from Lord Raith.  She's pregnant, married to a mortal, and running from the White Court.  If she was just misguided, then she could go the Wardens for help, and she could pay for that help, too.
She would be a gold mine of intel about the White Court, after all.  That alone would be a good enough reason to protect Margaret from Raith.

But if she was a warlock, guilty of multiple major crimes, then her failure to turn to the Council for help makes perfect sense.  But that makes Luccio's account wrong.

Or, an alternate way of looking at is they were both giving accounts from different points in Margaret's life.  If Eb's account is true then both likely were.  Or Eb may have known quite a bit more about her towards the end what with being her father and the blackstaff both.  Or Luccio may have been giving her the benefit of the doubt seeing as there hadn't been a hearing yet while Eb wasn't.  Or it may have been the old "multiple eye-witnesses with no two accounts matching" syndrome.

Too many or's to say for sure at this point I think.