Author Topic: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders  (Read 29346 times)

Offline AcornArmy

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4635
    • View Profile
[Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« on: August 29, 2011, 02:47:37 AM »
We've been told that Maggie LeFay was, "Brilliant, erratic, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, charming, insulting, bold, incautious, arrogant-- and short-sighted, yes. Among a great many other qualities." We've also been told that she knew more of the Ways than any other wizard alive, and knew them well enough that she could predict where they would go and when they would change-- something which apparently even very few fae are capable of doing.

Maggie apparently hated the way that humans could be preyed upon by wizards and other supernatural types without it being considered a breach of the Laws of Magic. Like Harry, she probably had the reasons for this stance explained to her, and like Harry, she probably understood it, even if she hated the results of the argument. But suppose that, unlike Harry, Maggie did not decide to drop the subject, or give up on changing things.

Maggie apparently explored the Nevernever in far greater detail than most wizards, and she quite likely went places that few wizards ever go. Suppose that one day she went exploring in some backwater of the Nevernever, someplace no sane wizard would ever go on their own, and she came across a place where passage to the Outside was possible.

We don't really know what the Outer Gates are, except that they open onto the Outside. And we don't really know what the Outside is, except that it's not part of Earth's normal reality. Outside may be one of the far reaches of the Nevernever-- in which case, blocking off access to it seems like it would be next to impossible-- or maybe it's another plane of existence, sort of like the Earthly plane, but quite separate. The latter seems like it would be easier to block off, since it seems like there would be fewer routes between such a realm and Earth. In either case, we know that access to the Outside is rare enough that it can be blocked off, because that is what has happened.

The Outer Gates seem like they must be points either on Earth or in the Nevernever where someone can open a gate and enter the Outside. Even the name implies this: Outer/Outside + Gate/portal. There must be a finite number of them known to the White Council in order for them to be blocked off. But the Nevernever is a big place; it's the biggest place, according to Harry. If the Outer Gates exist there, then it's almost inevitable that there are Outer Gates which have never been found and documented by wizards of the White Council.

So, suppose Maggie LeFay went exploring and found one. She wouldn't step through, of course, because she'd be instantly annihilated by the substance of that plane. But, being who she was, she wouldn't really need to step through to make an excellent guess about what was on the other side. And now Maggie has access to the Outsiders, something no one ever achieves, because the Council is so strict about killing anyone who even looks like they might be curious in that direction.

Maggie goes back to some of her friends, and they sit around, have some drinks, and start talking about how they want to foment political change for the poor vanilla mortals. Maggie brings up her new discovery, and they start pooling their knowledge of Outsiders and what they're capable of. Maybe they go to the Gate Maggie's discovered, and begin experimenting with summoning Outsiders in an attempt to learn more about them. The group eventually reaches a point where they realize that Outsiders can possess people and grant a dramatic boost to the host's natural power. (I'm extrapolating here, based on what we saw of Vitto's amped-up White Court psychic attack. This may not be something that all Outsiders can do, but it may not be limited to a single Outsider, either. There could be a whole class of Outsiders like that, for all we know.)

I have no idea what the group could have learned from the Outsiders to make them think they would be useful in changing the world for the better, but I suspect that that's what happened. I think maybe Maggie had never given up on the idea of leveling the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards, which would in turn level the field between mortals and most supernaturals. Only, maybe Maggie had given up on the idea of doing it using White Council politics. Maybe she had decided to start cooking up ways to replicate a wizard's abilities in the wider vanilla mortal population. And maybe, somehow, Outsiders seemed like they would be especially useful in doing this.

Way back in Storm Front, we had the Three-Eye drug, which turned out to be a potion that really did grant the Sight to vanilla mortals. Victor Sells supposedly created it, but he was an untrained hack. What are the odds that he could have developed something that no White Council wizard had ever heard of before? Or at least, something that was not common knowledge among wizards. I think Victor Sells probably got the recipe, or the beginnings of it, from someone else. Probably someone in Maggie's original group.

And then we have Kumori, in Dead Beat, talking about eliminating death forever through necromancy. Harry himself thinks that this would do more to level the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards than practically anything else, making their lifespans equal to a wizard's for the first time in history. If she and Cowl were successful, then combining that with a safer version of the Three-Eye drug, that would eliminate the Sight and the longevity from the list of disparities between vanillas and wizards.

After that, there is the power of magic itself. I have only the vaguest suspicions about how this one might be solved, mostly involving Outsider possession of the entire race of vanilla mortals-- but, honestly, that idea seems way too crazy for anyone to actually want to implement. I doubt that Maggie would've been that far gone. I mean, there's a reason that Outsiders are a banned subject, and summoning roughly 6 billion Outsiders into the Earthly plane would surely seem like a bad idea to anyone with half a functioning brain cell. But, whatever Maggie planned, my guess is that it did involve Outsiders in some way. Not one-by-one possession, but something else. I just have no clue what that something else might be.

Anyway, Maggie gets her group together, which probably included Justin DuMorne, and maybe later Lord Raith, and they begin this grand plan to change the world for the better. I'd imagine Lord Raith's excuse for being part of things was that anything that helped humans stay alive was beneficial to his kind in the long run. If vanilla mortals were strong enough to survive regular feeding by Whampires, everyone would win, from his perspective. Or, at least, that's probably something like what he told Maggie. After all, Raiths feed through superhumanly awesome sex, so if everyone could do that without any ill effects, why not?

Maggie, being brilliant, probably had a better grasp on Outsider lore than most of the rest of them. When things eventually turned bad, which they obviously did, she knew enough to recognize it and formulate a plan to fix the problem she had created. I don't have much of an idea how they turned bad, except to guess that the Outsiders may not have been quite as easy to use without repercussions as the group had believed they would be. Maybe the Outsiders began to exert an unhealthy influence over the group, bending it toward a new, less pleasant direction.

So Maggie left, hooked up with Malcolm Dresden, and gave birth to an Outsiderbane, who was meant to correct all the problems his mother had caused.

I know this seems like a weird and twisted plan, but think again about how Maggie was described: brilliant, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, bold, incautious, arrogant-- and short-sighted. Maggie could have come up with a plan like this. She could have found an unknown Outer Gate, she could have figured out how to summon Outsiders through it, and she could have decided they'd make a great tool to change the world for the better. And she could have been arrogant enough to think she could use them that way successfully. And maybe she was short-sighted enough not to realize that it would take a dark turn, at least not until the end.

PS: I wrote this post while listening to Gnarls Barkley's "Crazy" on a continuous loop. So if it seems way more nuts than my usual posts, I blame them.
DV AcornArmy YR5FR5 BK+++ RP+ TH+(++) WG+++ CL++ SH[Mab+ Lara++ Molly+++]

Offline Winter Warden

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 02:59:26 AM »
The theory's not so strange.  Although I have never thought of Maggie LeFay as the founder of the Black Council, I find it completely plausible that she was a member who decided that the BC's goals no longer aligned with her own, so she left.  Frankly, there are distinct similarities between the viewpoint of a character like Kumori and what Luccio claims were Maggie's goals.  Thus, even were she not one of the initial members, I would not have been surprised had she been sought out by the Black Council, as her views of the White Council were apparently quite well known.     

Offline WarlocksRUs

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 545
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 03:01:00 AM »
Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders is the name of my next band.  8)

Offline LordDresden

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4763
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 03:03:43 AM »

Maggie apparently hated the way that humans could be preyed upon by wizards and other supernatural types without it being considered a breach of the Laws of Magic. Like Harry, she probably had the reasons for this stance explained to her, and like Harry, she probably understood it, even if she hated the results of the argument. But suppose that, unlike Harry, Maggie did not decide to drop the subject, or give up on changing things.

We should keep in mind that 'Margaret as misguided idealist' is one version of her we've heard, in a very strange conversation with Luccio, that doesn't mesh at all well with any of the other versions.  We should also keep in mind that the other versions do mesh with each other.  It's Luccio's that is the odd one out.

Quote

Way back in Storm Front, we had the Three-Eye drug, which turned out to be a potion that really did grant the Sight to vanilla mortals. Victor Sells supposedly created it, but he was an untrained hack. What are the odds that he could have developed something that no White Council wizard had ever heard of before? Or at least, something that was not common knowledge among wizards. I think Victor Sells probably got the recipe, or the beginnings of it, from someone else. Probably someone in Maggie's original group.

And then we have Kumori, in Dead Beat, talking about eliminating death forever through necromancy. Harry himself thinks that this would do more to level the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards than practically anything else, making their lifespans equal to a wizard's for the first time in history. If she and Cowl were successful, then combining that with a safer version of the Three-Eye drug, that would eliminate the Sight and the longevity from the list of disparities between vanillas and wizards.

Now that is an interesting theory!  Especially in light of Harry's musings in Ghost Story that it's the ability to perceive magical energies that is one of the keys to becoming a Wizard in the first place.  I doubt if that's what Margaret was up to...but someone else might well be thinking in that direction.

Offline laura_be

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 03:06:52 AM »
And I'm thinking here... It could be that the bringing of Outsiders into the mortal world would also bring more of the magic into it. I'm thinking how in the "old world" magic was far more present, through history the belief in it has dicipated or replaced with other beliefs, maybe at some point in time it got banned away with the Outsiders, for reasons I wouldn't know to name, but Maggie's idea could be that bringing the Outsiders who would bring that old magic back, could translate into making a more fair distribution of power between mortals and supernatural, allowing the benefits you've cited, and really just leveling the field, give everybody fair opportunity.

So... I don't think is nuts at all, I think it's brilliant. Really. It's very well put and explained. I really need to reread to make some contributions here to your idea, I haven't paid that much attention to all the details in the books. But what you expose here is a sound theory in my opinion and thematically very interesting.
Somebody please ask Jim in the next Q&A? (since I probably won't ever get to): Murphy's role in the story, has it been planned since the beginning or has it evolved naturally over the course of the series? Is her future planned now?

DV laura_be V1.0 YR4 BK+ JB TH++ WG MC---- SH(Murphy+++++) TT--

Offline AcornArmy

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4635
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 03:37:02 AM »
We should keep in mind that 'Margaret as misguided idealist' is one version of her we've heard, in a very strange conversation with Luccio, that doesn't mesh at all well with any of the other versions.  We should also keep in mind that the other versions do mesh with each other.  It's Luccio's that is the odd one out.

Okay, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd like it if you would list the other descriptions of Maggie that you're thinking of. I don't really recall anything beyond what Ebenezer told Harry in Blood Rites, at the moment.
DV AcornArmy YR5FR5 BK+++ RP+ TH+(++) WG+++ CL++ SH[Mab+ Lara++ Molly+++]

Offline AcornArmy

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4635
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 03:38:26 AM »
So... I don't think is nuts at all, I think it's brilliant. Really. It's very well put and explained. I really need to reread to make some contributions here to your idea, I haven't paid that much attention to all the details in the books. But what you expose here is a sound theory in my opinion and thematically very interesting.

Thanks. :)
DV AcornArmy YR5FR5 BK+++ RP+ TH+(++) WG+++ CL++ SH[Mab+ Lara++ Molly+++]

Offline BigDPizzle

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 04:19:01 AM »
Way back in Storm Front, we had the Three-Eye drug, which turned out to be a potion that really did grant the Sight to vanilla mortals. Victor Sells supposedly created it, but he was an untrained hack. What are the odds that he could have developed something that no White Council wizard had ever heard of before? Or at least, something that was not common knowledge among wizards. I think Victor Sells probably got the recipe, or the beginnings of it, from someone else. Probably someone in Maggie's original group.

And then we have Kumori, in Dead Beat, talking about eliminating death forever through necromancy. Harry himself thinks that this would do more to level the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards than practically anything else, making their lifespans equal to a wizard's for the first time in history. If she and Cowl were successful, then combining that with a safer version of the Three-Eye drug, that would eliminate the Sight and the longevity from the list of disparities between vanillas and wizards.


Well we know that he was using a black magic ritual that was a smaller version of the RC ritual in Changes.  So who taught him the ritual & how to make the drug?  Was it Ariana or someone else (Black Council) using a cat's paw?

Offline LordDresden

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4763
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 04:47:18 AM »
Okay, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd like it if you would list the other descriptions of Maggie that you're thinking of. I don't really recall anything beyond what Ebenezer told Harry in Blood Rites, at the moment.

Hoo boy, let's see if I can slap this together.

The first major reference I can recall is from Chauzoggoroth, the infodemon Harry foolishly summoned up in Fool Moon.  In the course of the discussion, Harry happens to mention his mother, and Chauzoggoroth comments:

Quote
"Indeed.  Your mother was a most direct and willful woman.  Her loss was a great sadness to all of us."
"You...you knew my mother?  You knew Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden?"
"Many in the underworld were...familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name.  Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end."
"What do you mean?  What are you talking about?"
"Didn't you know about your mother's past, Mr. Dresden?  A pity we did not have this conversation sooner.  You might have added it into the bargain we made.  Of course, if you would like to forfeit another name, to know all about your mother's past, her redemption, and the unnatural deaths of both mother and father, I am sure we can work something out."

OK, Chaunzoggoroth is a demonic entity, and as such by definition untrustworthy.  Still, the only sucker bait it has to offer practitioners to summon it is useful truthful information.  So lying is highly risky, it needs a reputation for truthfulness to do its damage.  I suspect the only lie it told Harry was about St. Patrick being the source of the loup-garou curse.  For that, it suddenly switched from direct declarative statements to second-hand comments, "It is said..." etc.

Its comments about Margaret, OTOH, were direct declarations.


Our next contestant is the ever-infamous Nicodemus Archleone.  In Death Masks, when he had Harry helpless in that dungeon, he mentioned Margaret.

Quote
"Little Maggie's youngest.  You've grown up to be a man of considerable strengths."

Later, Harry asks Nicodemus why he didn't just kill him.  Nicodemus answers:

Quote
"I have a fond memory or two of your mother.  It cost me little to attempt it.  So why not?"
"That's the second time you've mentioned her."
"Yes.  I respected her.  Which is quite unusual for me."

OK, Nicodemus could easily have been lying (he does that).  But he did know that Harry was a younger offspring of his mother, and there is some corroborating evidence that he knew Margaret, as we'll get to in a moment.

Next up is Thomas, in Blood Rites.  Having told Harry that they share a common mother, Harry is reluctant to believe it.  Thomas tells Harry:

Quote
"She was my mother too.  Harry, you knew she wasn't exactly white as the driven snow.  I know you've learned a little over the years.  She was one Hell of a dangerous witch, and she kept some bad company."

Then a few minutes later, they have this exchange:

Quote
"It doesn't make any sense.  What would she have been doing hanging around with your father?"
"God knows.  All I know is that there was some sort of business between them.  It developed into something else.  Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall.  She escaped him when I was about five.  From what I've been able to learn, she met your father next year when she was on the run."
"Running from who?"
"Maybe my father.  Maybe some people in the Courts or on the Council.  I don't know.  She'd gotten into some bad business and she wanted out.  But whowever she was in it with didn't want her gone.  They wanted her dead."

Thomas then adds that he can't get people to talk to him about his mother.  Thomas and Harry continue to bicker over what the truth is.  A few minutes later they soulgaze, and Harry meets the simulacrum of his mother, who refers to herself/Margaret as being 'so arrogant', among other things.  The simulacrum confirms that he and Thomas are brothers.

Now, the simulation is a little piece of Margaret imprinted on the brains of Harry and Thomas.  What does that sound like? A lot like a Denarian mindshadow.  Where could she have learned to do such a thing?  Well, Nicodemus did claim to have known her.  Those two facts do seem to support each other.

Later in Blood Rites, Ebenezar tells Harry:

Quote
"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay.  They knew she was one of the Wizards who had turned the Council's own Laws against it.  She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had...unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation.  The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight.  She would have been tried and executed in moments if she was brought before the Council."
...

"I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates--including Justin DuMorne.  After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years.  And she ran from me.  I had my orders regarding her too."

In Turn Coat, Harry got a look at Ebenezar's journal, and he caught a glimpse of a line written by Eb to the effect that he can't think of anybody he'd trust with whatever is associatedf with Demonreach more than he'd trust Harry, but that..."then again, I trusted Maggie, too."

All right, now we've got various points of view on her, all of which more-or-less match up.  The versions from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, the Margaret-simulation, and Ebenezar all line up with each other.  They contradict Luccio's comments in Turn Coat in several basic ways.  Further, that whole conversation with Luccio was weird, weird, weird.  Harry's reactions to what she was saying made no sense, either.

So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist.  Maybe it started out that way...



« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 04:53:55 AM by LordDresden »

Offline TheWinterEmissary

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 640
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 06:16:09 AM »
Very interesting speculation AcornArmy!  I can definitely believe that you're right about at least some of your theory, maybe quite a bit of it. 

I'm also reminded of this WoJ which could be applicable:
Quote
"A lot of the folks that are generally perceived as bad guys aren't necessarily, and there are several who are currently perceived as good guys who aren't necessarily"

Harry hasn't had a chance to meet, or speak with, some of the "bad guys", and it could be that there are more like Kumori who aren't as bad as we might have assumed absent Harry's dialogue with her.  Unfortunately Harry won't know until he gets the chance to speak with them, as he did her.  I can definitely see that there might have been some idealistic people who fell in with Maggie's group, but got labeled "bad" and have had to stay on that "side" ever since. 

Offline AcornArmy

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4635
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 06:41:02 AM »
All right, now we've got various points of view on her, all of which more-or-less match up.  The versions from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, the Margaret-simulation, and Ebenezar all line up with each other.  They contradict Luccio's comments in Turn Coat in several basic ways.  Further, that whole conversation with Luccio was weird, weird, weird.  Harry's reactions to what she was saying made no sense, either.

So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist.  Maybe it started out that way...

This doesn't seem like a matter of contradiction, it seems like a matter of reading a lot of information into some very brief mentions of Maggie LeFay. That Maggie LeFay made contact with demons? Harry was doing that very thing while having that conversation. That Nicodemus respected her? Even if he's not blurring the lines of the truth, Nicodemus can probably be said to respect Harry, or Shiro, or any number of enemies. Saying he respected Maggie isn't the same thing as saying she had a coin herself. And concluding that Maggie learned how to make the simulacrum from studying a Fallen's mind-shadow is rather weak, since the only kind of support for the idea is that both of them are recordings of a personality. Simply hearing about a shadow construct could be enough to make a smart wizard start to consider how such a thing might be made with magic.

Most of all, though, Nicodemus is about as far from a reliable source as it's possible for one to get. Nick was in the middle of trying to convince Harry to take up one of the coins. Insinuating that Harry's mother had been friendly with the Denarians is an obvious move in that direction.

That she was dangerous is obvious, and I think I was pretty clear about some of the bad company she kept in my post. And I actually suggested that she repeatedly broke the Seventh Law myself; I know she broke some of the Laws, or I wouldn't have suggested that she'd started a club based on repeatedly breaking one of them.

The most important thing, though, is that Luccio's depiction of Maggie doesn't contradict any of that, it simply adds to it. The combination of being passionate, committed, incautious, arrogant, and short-sighted is one that could easily explain all of the dark insinuations by Chauncy, Nick, and Ebenezer. Maggie was a woman who believed what she believed, and was willing to go to extremes in order to make the world fit what she thought it should be.

Ebenezer himself told Harry that Maggie called him to Lord Raith's place for dinner and suggested an idea to him, an idea that he didn't want any part of, and that he thought she shouldn't want any part of, either. He said that this occurred shortly after Maggie had taken up with "that Raith bastard." So whenever Maggie's Lawbreaking occurred, it was after the scheme had been thought of and begun. Ebenezer was almost certainly not under orders to kill her at that time, or it seems doubtful that Maggie would have invited him to dinner with Lord Raith and Duchess Arianna.

And as I suggested in the OP-- well, if the group found themselves with access to a Gate to the Outside, what would they have done about it? Research on Outsiders was a beheading offense, so it's not like they could ask around within the White Council. They couldn't just start trying to summon Outsiders without any clue as to how to do it, because they weren't stupid, or at least Maggie wasn't, and such a thing was bound to be incredibly dangerous. So where would Maggie go for information on Outsiders, and how to safely summon them? She'd go to the underworld. Maybe she'd even go to Nicodemus, a 2,000 year old Denarian with demonic connections. She'd go to the darker, more ancient fae, who might have such knowledge.

It seems to me that Luccio's description gives us insight into why Maggie did the things she did and where she came from, while the others give us insight into the kinds of things she was eventually willing to do to achieve her goals. I was never suggesting that Maggie was pure as the driven snow, or even that she was just misunderstood. I'm sure she did some ugly things, once she came up with her plan and started putting it in motion. But from the example of the dinner Ebenezer had with her, the darker period of her life probably took place near the end, after she hooked up with Raith.

But even if she did do some unpleasant things in service to her goals, that doesn't mean that Luccio's description wasn't accurate. In fact, it seems to me to be the only explanation anyone has given us for why Ebenezer's daughter would do the kinds of things that she apparently did. She was driven, she thought way, way outside the box, and she was willing to do what she felt she had to in order to succeed in her plans.

All the sources agree, though, that she eventually turned away from her allies and left them. She eventually came to her senses, and realized that what she had intended to achieve was not what was actually happening. That's pretty much what it sounds like from all of the various sources. She may have been misguided and short-sighted, but she wasn't evil. Which fits perfectly with how Luccio described her.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 06:42:59 AM by AcornArmy »
DV AcornArmy YR5FR5 BK+++ RP+ TH+(++) WG+++ CL++ SH[Mab+ Lara++ Molly+++]

Offline AcornArmy

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4635
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 06:54:32 AM »
Very interesting speculation AcornArmy!  I can definitely believe that you're right about at least some of your theory, maybe quite a bit of it. 

I'm also reminded of this WoJ which could be applicable:
Harry hasn't had a chance to meet, or speak with, some of the "bad guys", and it could be that there are more like Kumori who aren't as bad as we might have assumed absent Harry's dialogue with her.  Unfortunately Harry won't know until he gets the chance to speak with them, as he did her.  I can definitely see that there might have been some idealistic people who fell in with Maggie's group, but got labeled "bad" and have had to stay on that "side" ever since.

Thanks! That WoJ could be important, if something like this theory turns out to be true. It could imply that some of the people, like maybe DuMorne, weren't quite as horrible as they've seemed so far. I know Ebenezer called him "that bastard DuMorne," but now that we know Maggie was Eb's daughter, it could be that Eb wasn't being entirely objective in his opinion. Eb might place a lot of the blame for what eventually happened to Maggie on DuMorne and Lord Raith. Though, to be fair, it seems like a safe bet that Raith really is as big a bastard as Eb thinks he is.

Of course, the WoJ could also imply that there are factions within the Outsider-summoning group, and that some of them suck and some don't, and we may not be clear on which is which.
DV AcornArmy YR5FR5 BK+++ RP+ TH+(++) WG+++ CL++ SH[Mab+ Lara++ Molly+++]

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1041
  • Unemployed in Greenland
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 09:49:51 AM »
So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist.  Maybe it started out that way...

Misguided but Well-Intentioned Idealist (n) - see villain.  see also hero.

We'll be entering an election year here in the US soon and I fully expect that both parties will paint the other as villains.  And they're both right.  And they're both wrong.  Good and evil are opinions.
Violence is like duct tape.  If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.

My web based NPC formatter, output suitable for copy/paste to boards and wiki, can be found here.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »
Quote
So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist.  Maybe it started out that way...

In the history of the world you will find that most of the murderous dictators and religious fanatics who are responsible for the death of millions started out as well-intentioned idealists.  Now you can argue about what exactly their ideals were, but there it is. 

In the Sixties, the anti-war movement was filled with well-intentioned idealists, most of them remained that way, others got splintered off into violent groups such as the Weathermen, while most took drugs, some got into the business of dealing drugs big time. 

The point I am getting to, is we know Margaret LeFay daughter of Eb, had a bit of a strict upbringing and apprenticeship, Eb admits to pushing her too far and hints at inflexibility on his part, and his daughter ran away.  Luccio hints and even the WC has dropped some hints that Margaret didn't care for the White Council system, too many constraints in her opinion, her youngest son shared some of those beliefs.  It is easy for someone angry, young, idealistic, full of herself [arrogant as only the young can be] like Margaret LeFay was,to get led astray or corrupted by someone older more powerful, like Nick would be perfect to take up her mentorship, then someone like the handsome urbane Lord Raith..  She'd even have a child by him, but in the end, Maggie LeFay found that she valued her own free will more, and Lord Raith found that he could never fully enthrall her to his will.  She escaped, eventually hooked up with Malcom a truly good vanilla human, from his example, realized with horror what she had helped in her angry idealism to unleash, so she devised a plan to counter it, that plan was to conceive a child under a special alinement of the stars with a truly good man, that child was Harry.

It could be that she did help to found the Black Council, but I suspect they have been around as long as the White Council.

I think that I may also have come up with a motive for why Malcom Dresden was murdered.  He was the only one who knew the full story of the how and the why of Margaret LeFay's redemption.  Only Malcom had the first hand knowledge, others had first hand knowledge only of her rebellion and her evil period, this is most of what has been passed on to Harry.  Even his grandfather, who wouldn't even tell Harry he was his grandfather, could have told him a heck of a lot about his mother, but didn't. Out of fear of what the knowledge might do to Harry maybe, or because nobody but Malcom knew the full story.

That full story would help erase doubt in Harry about his mother, make him less easy to lead astray by others, so Malcom had to die.  What is interesting, is Harry himself doesn't quite get the importance of knowing that part of the story, otherwise he would have asked Lea more about it, instead he pressed her to tell him who murdered him. Something he knew she really wasn't going to be allowed to tell him.
Quote
OK, Chaunzoggoroth is a demonic entity, and as such by definition untrustworthy.  Still, the only sucker bait it has to offer practitioners to summon it is useful truthful information.  So lying is highly risky, it needs a reputation for truthfulness to do its damage.  I suspect the only lie it told Harry was about St. Patrick being the source of the loup-garou curse.  For that, it suddenly switched from direct declarative statements to second-hand comments, "It is said..." etc.

I doubt he was telling a lie about any of it, what he was doing was putting bait on a hook to try and catch Harry.  What better bait than to tempt Harry with the full story of what happened to his mother and father?  Harry almost was willing to give up his full name for that, but not quite. 

Just as a side note, old Chez didn't have Harry's full name, wouldn't, unless Harry gave it to him, in contrast both Uriel and the Angel of Death had not only Harry's full name, but all the inflections needed to hold power over him.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 12:20:02 PM by Mira »

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: [Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 02:33:22 PM »
This is very nice indeed.  There's only one part of it that does not quite work for me.

Maggie, being brilliant, probably had a better grasp on Outsider lore than most of the rest of them. When things eventually turned bad, which they obviously did, she knew enough to recognize it and formulate a plan to fix the problem she had created. I don't have much of an idea how they turned bad, except to guess that the Outsiders may not have been quite as easy to use without repercussions as the group had believed they would be. Maybe the Outsiders began to exert an unhealthy influence over the group, bending it toward a new, less pleasant direction.

So Maggie left, hooked up with Malcolm Dresden, and gave birth to an Outsiderbane, who was meant to correct all the problems his mother had caused.

I am not seeing the degree of effort Justin puts into training Harry, and that various forces have put into co-opting or corrupting Harry over the course of the series, as compatible with Harry being solely a solution to Maggie's former misdeeds; it seems to me to fit better with Harry's existence being part of the same plan, which Maggie tries to hack for the purposes of good. The timing of Maggie's death also makes more sense to me if Lord R and possibly his remaining allies want the Outsiderbane child around and mouldable to their ends, but don't want Maggie there as a potential influence.  The utility of a child with special power over Outsiders to a group interested in using Outsiders (for whatever end) seems fairly straightforward to me.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.