7th law violations and non-spellcasters

[zenten]

So, the PCs in my game are getting close to learning stuff about Old Ones and Outsiders.  The question is, what would happen if they did, both in terms of the Lawbreaker power and the wardens.

I know what would happen with the focused practioner.  It's the others that I'm less sure of.

One is a changeling daughter of a high ranking sidhe of the Winter Court.

One is a Knight of the Cross.

One is an RCMP constable (working with a secret taskforce that deals with supernatural crimes), pure mortal template.

One is an emessary of power of a freeholding lord.

One is an ex-biker, also pure mortal template (although who knows how long now that he has a Denarian coin).

The last is a Daoist with a bunch of faith powers.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

So, the PCs in my game are getting close to learning stuff about Old Ones and Outsiders.  The question is, what would happen if they did, both in terms of the Lawbreaker power and the wardens.

I know what would happen with the focused practioner.  It's the others that I'm less sure of.

One is a changeling daughter of a high ranking sidhe of the Winter Court.

One is a Knight of the Cross.

One is an RCMP constable (working with a secret taskforce that deals with supernatural crimes), pure mortal template.

One is an emessary of power of a freeholding lord.

One is an ex-biker, also pure mortal template (although who knows how long now that he has a Denarian coin).

The last is a Daoist with a bunch of faith powers.

Depends on if what they learn is any more expansive than that they exist or what's in Lovecraft novels.  If they start doing any serious research on the subject and the Council gets wind of it, expect everyone who doesn't have someone powerful backing them up to gain "The Late" as an aspect ASAFP.  If it's picked up through experience, they'll probably be spared but watched.  Closely.

[Masurao]

I would be unfair if the PCs are captured and then exposed to that knowledge through a tedious monologue by the villain, I mean, they would remember some stuff, but not everything, but it is practically the same as Lawbreaking mechanically. And, like Buzzard said, what is learned through experience should mostly be exempt from retribution. (I am assuming they learned it through combating outsiders)

If the knowledge is forced upon you in great quantities, you'd probably NEED to take the Lawbreaker power, whether or not you're a caster, but perhaps you could find someone without scrupules and have them hide that bit of your memory

[Rubycon]

I always interpreted the laws as something that applies to those who are magic active. Those people are aware enough to how the unsiverse is built that they are aware of the consequences of their doing. So in this view, nonspellslingers are not obligated to obey the Laws nor are they affected by them in terms of Lawbreaker powers.
Or am I totally wrong...?

[DFJunkie]

In this case I think you're half wrong.  The Law is "do not seek knowledge or power from beyond the outer gates."  A literal reading of the law would indicate that the intentional acquisition of Outsider knowledge,  even by a non-spell slinger, is enough to get your head chopped off, but no amount of villain's exposition would put you in similar danger.  Now, if a person is told something truly earth-shatteringly dangerous the Wardens might kill them in a carefree, off the books, "oops, he must have slipped and fallen on that sword, what a tragedy" sort of way.

I don't think the Lawbreaker power is assigned unless a character actually employs knowledge or power from Beyond using magic. 

[Masurao]

Actually, I believe that for this particular Law, even active research is going to get you the Lawbreaker power. I looked it up for a post some time ago, about Outsider Sponsored Magic. I quote YS244:

Furthermore, the
Outside’s intentions are so dark, so dire, that the
Seventh Law is the only one on the books that
isn’t conditioned upon casting a spell. Even doing
research on the Outside and its inhabitants is
verboten, let alone actually pulling power from
there.

[DFJunkie]

Good call, the wording of the power itself seems to agree with your interpretation.  On YS 182 it says:

You've sought knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates, or otherwise drawn power from that forbidden source, upsetting the natural balance of the universe.

[Richard_Chilton]

If people get knowledge of the outer gates, then for no real reason these guys in Grey Cloaks will show up looking for blood.  You can't reason with them and these fanatics have great powers; they plan to either kill the people with the knowledge or to give them a "trial" (not in front of a real judge and all the defendant's rights get ignored!) then execute them.

Which is why people fear the Grey Cloaks, to the point that the plot that happened in White Night worked.  The base reaction in that book was "So-and-so is missing and probably dead? And there was Grey Cloak around looking for her? Shit! Well, there's nothing we can do.  I wonder what they say she did?"

So the people researching the Outer Gates didn't know the laws of magic? That's too bad for them, just as it was for the warlock at the start of Proven Guilty.  No one spotted his talent in time so no one told him about the laws of magic - but when he broke the laws the Wardens came for him and after his trial he was executed.  Just as they do to everyone who breaks the laws of magic.

Yes, I can hear the "but".  You're thinking "But those laws only apply to people with magic!".  The thing is, you need magic to break the first 6 laws but the 7th law doesn't say you need to work magic in regards to the outer gates - just researching them is enough.

Richard

[zenten]

If people get knowledge of the outer gates, then for no real reason these guys in Grey Cloaks will show up looking for blood.  You can't reason with them and these fanatics have great powers; they plan to either kill the people with the knowledge or to give them a "trial" (not in front of a real judge and all the defendant's rights get ignored!) then execute them.

Which is why people fear the Grey Cloaks, to the point that the plot that happened in White Night worked.  The base reaction in that book was "So-and-so is missing and probably dead? And there was Grey Cloak around looking for her? Shit! Well, there's nothing we can do.  I wonder what they say she did?"

So the people researching the Outer Gates didn't know the laws of magic? That's too bad for them, just as it was for the warlock at the start of Proven Guilty.  No one spotted his talent in time so no one told him about the laws of magic - but when he broke the laws the Wardens came for him and after his trial he was executed.  Just as they do to everyone who breaks the laws of magic.

Yes, I can hear the "but".  You're thinking "But those laws only apply to people with magic!".  The thing is, you need magic to break the first 6 laws but the 7th law doesn't say you need to work magic in regards to the outer gates - just researching them is enough.

Richard

Well, the PCs do know about the White Council and the Laws of Magic.  The Sorcerer (I forgot she's upgraded her template since character creation, and she's getting really close to being a full on Wizard) knows enough about them to stay the heck away from them.  And really, if a throwdown were to come between these PCs and a reasonable Warden response my money is actually on the PCs.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Well, the PCs do know about the White Council and the Laws of Magic.  The Sorcerer (I forgot she's upgraded her template since character creation, and she's getting really close to being a full on Wizard) knows enough about them to stay the heck away from them.  And really, if a throwdown were to come between these PCs and a reasonable Warden response my money is actually on the PCs.

A Warden isn't the problem.  It's what happens if the first Warden sent fails or goes missing that's the problem.  Good they may be but if they get the Wardens cheesed off at them it's going to go a lot like:

"Are you a god?"
"No..."
"Then die!"

[DFJunkie]

Also, if they actually tamper with the Gates, rather than simply read about them, they may brass off the Gatekeeper who, per WoJ, is the most dangerous (if not most powerful) member of the Senior Council.

[Richard_Chilton]

And really, if a throwdown were to come between these PCs and a reasonable Warden response my money is actually on the PCs.

The thing about the Wardens is that they aren't reasonable - especially with people who threaten the existence of the world.  There's the first wave, then there's the follow up wave of everyone who isn't busy doing something else - because the White Council is all for the continued existence of the world.

Because that's how the Council sees the 7th Law - something that threatens the existence of the world.  It's up there with a call starting "His fourth book and several apprentices are in Chicago" - the Wardens will throw everything they have at it because if they fail the world could be destroyed.  And they'll sure as shooting going to inform the senior council - meaning Gatekeeper and crew might be there too.  All of them fighting their hardest to save the world.

The Wardens are known to show up and say "Don't do X - don't even think about it".  The group that Charity was in got the talk, Mort got the talk, lots of people get the talk.  Perhaps the Gatekeeper will guide a couple of Wardens to visit that sorcerer and say "Don't even think about doing X"?

That might be best - unless you want to leave canon behind.  And if you want to leave canon behind, well if your players are having fun than that all that matters.

Richard

[Veet]

...

Yes, I can hear the "but".  You're thinking "But those laws only apply to people with magic!".  The thing is, you need magic to break the first 6 laws but the 7th law doesn't say you need to work magic in regards to the outer gates - just researching them is enough.

Richard

Also I would think that if a person has sought beyond the outer gates one can assume they have magic. The dark powers are always willing to help and all.

[devonapple]

Also I would think that if a person has sought beyond the outer gates one can assume they have magic. The dark powers are always willing to help and all.

They would have to be pretty Manfred to get that far without magic, but a sufficiently charming and ballsy manipulator might get there without actually throwing down like that, but try explaining that to the Wardens.

[zenten]

The PCs took out someone with Sponsored Magic (Old Ones).  There was some residual backlash from her death curse which basically left a scene aspect of "Warped by Old Ones magic".  They also have her book, which is both an instruction manual on how to get her Sponsored Magic, and acts as a focus.  They are really, really paranoid about what to do with the book, and I'm curious to see how they'll clean up the mess.