Smith and Wesson 500

[Masurao]

A 9mm (Weapon:2) has around five to six hundred pounds of force behind it
A .44 (Desert Eagle, Weapon: 3) has around 1,100 to 1,500 pounds of force behind it
A .500 S&W (mentioned above) has around 2,200 to 3,000 pounds of force behind it.

Gotta be honest, seems around Weapon: 4 to me.

EDIT: Huh, I've got different numbers, what is your source Fantazero?

I don't think it so much a case of number, per se. You see, at a certain point, it doesn't matter how much pounds of force are behind a shot, because those rounds will most likely exit your body quite fast. You see, this force is applied to a really small area, so it is somewhat negligible (physics-/mechanic-wise,  so don't tell me getting shot isn't a breeze!).

Now, I know you shouldn't give too much thought on types of ammo, but AP ammo does little internal damage, normal slugs leave bigger holes, JHP in such a gun would quite often turn people into meat fountains. But still, relatively speaking, it is nowhere near the damage one can inflict with bigger and/or automatic rifles.

To put it in a different perspective: bows are just as deadly to humans as guns, with less force behind them (in most cases), it's just that you can fire guns more often in a shorter space of time.

[Richard_Chilton]

And Ted Nugent goes bear hunting with a bow and arrow...

I think the problem is looking at something and saying "Well if X is 2 then Y must be 3 and then it follows that Z is 4" when the scale is more geometric than that. 

Let me copy and paste something:

Small pocket weapons, knives, saps, and “belly guns” Weapon:1

Swords, baseball bats, batons, most pistols Weapon:2

Two-handed weapons, oversized pistols (Desert Eagle and company), rifles and shotguns, most fully-automatic weapons - Weapon:3

“Battlefield” weaponry, explosives Weapon:4+

A baseball bat or baton can do more damage than a 'belly gun' or knife.  A baseball bat does the same damage as a sword.  Notice the lack of "Well if X (a baseball bat) is 2 then Y (a baton designed to strike with) must be 3 and Z (a sword) must be 4..." ?

I see a Smith and Wesson 500 being covered by "... and company" because it's not a battlefield weapon.  Yes, I know that logic says it's a class higher than a Desert Eagle, but what logic has a baseball bat being as deadly as a sword?


As an aside, people who have enjoyed this discussion might want to check out a link that was posted in another part of this forum.  http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullets.shtml is one I keep meaning to post on an inherent silver thread as it explains why you can't take that silver necklace or melt down grand dad's silver dollar to get a silver bullet.

Richard

[UmbraLux]

As an aside, people who have enjoyed this discussion might want to check out a link that was posted in another part of this forum.  http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullets.shtml is one I keep meaning to post on an inherent silver thread as it explains why you can't take that silver necklace or melt down grand dad's silver dollar to get a silver bullet.

Interesting article!  Thanks for the link.  Also amusing in the lengths authors (or husbands of authors) will go to justify what they've written in the fiction! 

[Richard_Chilton]

I thought that anyone who enjoyed comparing guns would enjoy the link.

And it definitely destroys the myth of melting the family silver or grandmother's silver necklace and making a bullet out of it.

Richard

[ARedthorn]

My group handles some weapon differentiations using aspects permanently attached to the weapon in question... for example, a shot to the head from a Barrett .50 cal isn't going to make you any more or less dead than a shot from the S&M 500 at point blank range... or really, any less dead than a tank round to the noggin... the difference between them is exactly how much head is left, and at that point- you're the one person in the world who doesn't care, as a character- it's just storytelling from there.

For purposes of determining overall weapon value, we count any such aspect attached as being equivalent to a +1 weapon rating (after all, it can be tagged once for a +2, but after that, is no more useful for enhancing damage than

I'd put a 50cal at weapon 4, but attach a couple aspects to it for <LR Scope> (useful where extreme accuracy or ranged penalties apply) <BFG> (massive damage, split target damage for killing the guy behind the guy you're shooting, or compel against the player who's trying to conceal it), and maybe some special loads.

I'd put the 500 at weapon 4, but attach <Concealable> (I assume, the picture doesn't REALLY make it's size clear, but it looks small enough to at least attempt concealment), and again, maybe some special loads.

A Main Tank Gun, I'd put at Weapon 5 or 6, with the note that it automatically affects multiple targets at that value and ignores all but the most serious armor or cover.

I also let my players attach single use aspects to weapons as appropriate (my melee guy can put a <Honed Edge> on his blade that, IRL, would go away the first time it's used, and my gun-monkey can really hyper-tune his gun's sights or cold fire the weapon like snipers do- first time it's fired though, the vibrations alone screw up such tuning and the bullet ruins the cold-firing)... but that really just amounts to a maneuver they do on the individual weapons that I allow to last until used because it's realistic.

[computerking]

Damn, that gun needs a character Sheet!
High Concept: Big Handgun
Trouble: Kicks like a Mofo
Other Aspects:
Kills Freakin' Bears
Makes a .44 look Wimpy (A good aspect for Social Combat)
Heavy  Ammo
Is that the Samaritan in your pocket or are you happy to see me? (Note: the Samaritan is Hellboy's gun)

[BumblingBear]

It is a weapon: 4.

In my games, I call a 12 gauge shotgun a weapon:4 in the same zone and a weapon:2 farther than that.

In my game, I'd call the handcannon a weapon: 4 with a -1 to attack due to the recoil unless someone takes a stunt for it.

OP - for future reference, this forum is not the best place to discuss weapons.  There is not a whole lot of actual real-world weapon knowledge amongst a lot of people who respond to such things.  That's not a dig - just a fact from my perspective.

Fun fact: I met a dude in West Virginia - gang banger type who carried a S&W 500.  The cops I knew were less afraid of him than anyone else because they were almost sure he would never be able to hit anything with it.

Those pistols require a LOT of practice to be good with.  I am not sure that I could shoot one accurately right now.

[computerking]

I am not sure that I could shoot one accurately right now.

In Soviet Russia, Bear Shoots You!

[BumblingBear]

In Soviet Russia, Bear Shoots You!

Indeed.

[LordDraqo]

I'd definitely go with Weapon: 3 with the Aspects: "Used to hunt Bears," and "Kicks like a mother."

[Silverblaze]

I decided to post a little reply instead of a lengthy one I had composed.  i also want it known I know a fair amount about real life weaponry, but I am a far cry from an expert as much as my ego would love to argue that.

 Semi-Short version:

How accurate do you want to be and how dangerous do you want mortals to be?

With proper ammunition a .22 can wreak havok on a man sized body...easily more than a weapon:2...but most people see .22 and giggle and think it to be a wussy gun. 

Deer slugs will punch through virtually any armor mankind wears...if it doesn't you're lucky and have some broken bones...start thanking your deity/s you lived.  Using shot as opposed to slugs should make it easier to hit targets also... usually not taken into effect in these games.

Zweihander swords should be more than weapon:3 in my opinion, but at the end of hte day it comes down to those two questions...how accurate/specific do you want to get and how nasty do you want non supernatural forms of damage to be/get.

I can guarantee weapon damage will vary from gaming group to gaming group - regardless of facts in real life.

[Silverblaze]

For fun I think stating black powder guns and obscure weapons could be a lot of fun...maybe another thread?

Pepperboxes?

LeMat percussion pistols?

strange weapons I can't spell accurately that were used by the ancient native south americans or many asian cultures?

[gojj]

I don't compare weapons to each other directly specifically because the system doesn't have enough room to do so (battle axe is more dangerous than longsword, but both are two handed weapons, so both are Weapon 3, etc).

So, for guns: Most pistols, regardless of type, are Weapon 2.  Big ones, DEagle, Magnums, etc. are Weapon 3.  Weapon 4 is reserved for explosives, anti-tank weapons, cannons, etc.  So...is this a battlefield scale weapon?  No?  Then it's Weapon 3.

Even high powered sniper rifles are just Weapon 3.  That extra damage comes from stacking maneuvers and declarations.

If you want it to do more, use Guns to make a declaration, place an aspect.  Now your giant calibre pistol is plot relevant and not just a fancy gun.

Bingo. Yes this is a large gun, but it is still an oversized handgun and therefore weapon three.

[Sanctaphrax]

You know, I think we use different definitions of "battlefield weapon". I definitely include high-powered sniper rifles in that category. Some assault rifles might also qualify.

An oversized handgun wouldn't, though.

[Radijs]

Personally I would not increase its rating past that of a heavy handgun. Simply because you're giving it some significant advantages, but still leave it concealable in an inside pocket.