Author Topic: Conflicts of style and taste...  (Read 5128 times)

Roxy Rocket

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Conflicts of style and taste...
« on: August 17, 2011, 11:12:23 AM »
My tabletop group went on hold when classes ended and isn't resuming in September as we thought it would. I started looking for a new table and I'm not liking what I see.

I've seen one tabletop group and read through the wiki of the other one. They both play like they were trying to write the Teen Comedy version of Dresden. I jumped into a chat based game but the disorganization and technical problems got my teeth gnashing. It's not always as bad as 'Three of the players are Jade Court Vampires, none of them agree on what the Jade Court is,' but...well, it's not appealing.

How crazy is too crazy? Can you really play a decent game without becoming a rules/canon fascist? Is it really so uncommon to want to play a Dresden game that looks like a Dresden story instead of dungeons and dragons in a modern setting?

Offline Rubycon

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 11:45:13 AM »
As I see it, the Dresden Files has a bit of everything. Very funny parts and very dark ones. Therefore, the stories attract lots of people who especially like one of those styles mixed into the whole stories. So I'm not surprised that the game is played by some in one of those styles the whole time. Don't forget: They have fun with it, so it's O.K.
That doesn't mean, of course, that you have to like it or there aren't other styles of gaming in the dresdenverse that are more "complete" or, as you called it, canon-like. I see this problem nearly in every roleplaying group, no matter what they play.
As for your question, in my very personal opinion, I would consider a group as "too crazy" if:
  • more than one player plays a "monster" (a character who has no refresh)
  • this player has not a very good (spell:  plausible) story why his character is a part of the group
  • the group beginns with more than 10 refresh because they think 10 is not powerful enough
  • the group tweak rules or develop houserule to make the characters more powerful
  • the GM let the characters constantly go away with breaking the Laws (mundane or magic)

This list could  be longer if I have some time to think about it, but this points should be the most important... ;)

NicholasQuinn

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 11:51:30 AM »
My condolences on your troubles. Finding a decent group can be challenging, but once done, very rewarding! Good luck in your searches. You might want to look into the online PbP games run on these boards, if you're so inclined. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

How crazy is too crazy? Can you really play a decent game without becoming a rules/canon fascist? Is it really so uncommon to want to play a Dresden game that looks like a Dresden story instead of dungeons and dragons in a modern setting?

1. Varies from group to group. Some enjoy 'crazy' games, others prefer a different tone. An unhelpful answer I know, but none-the-less true.
2. A. Without becoming a rules fascist certainly! A looser adheration to the rules works for some groups, but for others it is necessary to stick 100% to them. Whichever you find more fun is fine.
    B. The rules can also be used for other settings, so you don't have to stick to cannon at all. When I GM, I intend to have changed one major event from cannon. I don't see it having a negative impact on the game, and in fact it allows things to go a completely new direction: freeing both GM and players from any concerns about how cannon went/goes from here.
The RPG encourages creative thought both in creating new possibilities, and manipulation/interpretation of rules. Or at least, that is how I see it.
3. Not at all. I mean, that is why I brought the RPG in the first place. To become a character in the Dresden Files setting, not to become a modern day wizard/priest/barbarian. Although the RPG rules do work for other settings, if that is the route a group wants to go.

Offline Darkling

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 11:55:44 AM »

I know of one IMVU RP group that has decided that the Jade Court is a mysterious Asian type of vampire that has a powerful poisons of varying strengths and uses that come from porcupine-like quills they produce in their fingers, and they feed on dreams, which is more dangerous than it sounds because people can die of exhaustion.  It's strange but an interesting take on the yet unsubscribed court.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 11:15:47 AM by Darkling »
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Offline Masurao

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 01:09:41 PM »
I can't help but think of Jade Court vamps in the style of WW's WoD Kuei-Jin... Does this make me a bad person?

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 01:20:20 PM »
My group has set canon on fire, taken the still-screaming near-dead thing out back, put two in its head, and fed the remains to the chainsaw fairy*.  We're telling our own stories, and as much as I love reading Dresden Files, we don't have to adhere to what someone else says our game should include.

Canon isn't important at all, but getting your group to understand what the game will be about is important.

Also, my players' party actually does follow the typical D&D party, ironically enough.  There is a wizened sage of an ex-Denarian host who fulfills the Mage role.  A former Marine who's built like a Fighter.  A straight-up Thief.  Finally, an ex-con who found God (with the associated Faith powers) makes a fine Cleric.

*There's a Sarlacc pit out back too, for the eternally-digested remains of our mangled Star Wars canon.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 01:29:17 PM »
Urban fantasy can be difficult to play...  Some play it with a cyberpunk/film noir feel, some with a Scooby Doo feel, and most are in the middle.  There's always the temptation to slip into Buffy mode - but if you make the game character driven (and I think Dresden is designed to be as much character driven as player driven) then it can hold a straight line.

Of course it depends on the characters.  Having an oddball - a comic character amongst the moody 'fighting the darkness inside and out' type characters, or a moody 'I stand against the darkness' type mixed with frat boy humour characters - doesn't usually work well.  When the players want different things out of the game then someone usually isn't happy.

Which is why making PCs together is such a big deal.  If there's an odd man out then the game is being pulled in different directions.  Everyone needs to be in the same ballpark when it comes to expectations or things just won't work.

Richard

Offline newtinmpls

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 01:35:51 PM »
Well, inherently the biggest "non-cannon" part of any Dresden Files game will be that Dresden is not there being played by his 'usual' player, and it's not the same DM.

So if I (as DM) put "Dresden" in my 'Verse, it won't be the same Dresden, and that's as close as I could get. But I don't want to GM a game of "NPC files" so I don't do that. So whose "files" are they?

I want my game to center on the PC's, so I have to find a way to have my universe engage with them. The aspects they choose will help me with that - and even with no other tweaks, my world will begin to vary from canon, and the longer the campaign, the greater the variance. It will at most be "based on" or "inspired by"

As for Character vs Player driven - it's a poor player that seeks a Player driven game (In My Not So Humble Opinion). As DM I'm very appreciative of Character driven.

Offline Pbartender

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 01:54:36 PM »
Is it really so uncommon to want to play a Dresden game that looks like a Dresden story instead of dungeons and dragons in a modern setting?

Here's the problem a lot of GMs (myself included) run onto when running a game, and especially a game that's heavily invested in a well-known published setting...

Designing and running role playing adventures and campaigns is NOT the same as writing a novel.  It can't be.  Many of the best plot-developing tricks and techniques that work for one are complete disaster for the other.  Here's why:

  • You do not have complete control over the characters and story.
  • You are dealing with a group of protagonists, rather than a single hero.
  • You are subject to semi-random outcomes based on dice rolls.

For inspiration, momentarily forget the novels and look to other television shows and movies that focus on teams of characters that work together to investigate and solve problems.

If you want the adventures to look like a Dresden story then, with all due respect, stop playing the game and go write some fan-fiction.  Otherwise, present your players and their characters with some interesting scenarios, let them run with it, and have the Dresdenverse react accordingly to their actions.  For me, at least, half the fun of GMing is not just creating that initial setup, but not knowing exactly how the "story" will pan out because I can't always predict how my players will act.

That said, understand that your players are probably playing this way, because A) that's how they've always played, and B) it's fun for them.  They don't have any incentive to change their play style.  Unfortunately, I don't now your group well enough to help on that front -- that's going to be a fix that needs to be tailored to you particular players.

In the meantime, consider taking a more "Big Trouble In Little China" route for the game...  The threats are serious and dangerous, but the heroes are allowed to indulge in sardonic (and occasionally bumbling) comic relief to preserve their sanity from That Which Man Was Not Meant To Know.

Also understand that, on a personal level, most people have more than enough drama and enough problems that need to be taken entirely too seriously in their Real Lives to begin with.  Deep down, they don't really want to deal with those same sorts of emotions while playing a hobby meant to help them decompress and relieve the stress and frustration and such that builds up from those same emotions in the Real World.  Generally, with a few exceptions, people playing RPGs are looking for the action, adventure and humor that you always see in movies and novels, but almost never in the Real World.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 01:58:37 PM by Pbartender »

Offline CaptFisher

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 03:28:31 PM »
Playing along side literature is not easy in a game...my tabletop group is trying to play Dresden Adjacent, but as the players in the group are not Harry their take on things and how they deal with problems is different...only 2 of the 4 of us have read the fiction so playing a Dresden feel is really not possible for them...but i think our stories could be Dresden stories.

The real problem you seem to be having from your OP and what others have all ready said is finding a compatible group that matches your gaming style. They are out there.  Power gaming in a group of Power Gamers can be a good time...if you like that...if your more of a Role Player...you need to find a group that fits that style
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Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 03:34:09 PM »
Is it really so uncommon to want to play a Dresden game that looks like a Dresden story instead of dungeons and dragons in a modern setting?

Hey, if nothing else, at least you know what you want.  That probably solves more than half the potential pitfalls right there.

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 05:04:39 PM »
My thoughts exactly.  The OP obviously wants different things out of a DFRPG game than the group he's seen and so wouldn't be a good fit in their game.

I agree somewhat with Pbartender that telling a Dresden Files worthy story in any RPG is a dicey proposition, but I don't think it's impossible.  I've enjoyed about a 33% success rate in establishing interesting, elegant, exciting plot lines without railroading my players, and I'm satisfied with that.  That's mostly for my benefit though.  The player of the WCV just wants to get to be nasty and imperious, the wizard's player wants to engage in daring action, and the Scion of Thor wants to smash things to goo.  So long as they're happy I've done my job as GM.  Trying to achieve some sort of elegance in the story telling is my fun.
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline Pbartender

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 05:48:39 PM »
I agree somewhat with Pbartender that telling a Dresden Files worthy story in any RPG is a dicey proposition, but I don't think it's impossible.

Oh, of course it's not impossible...  I wasn't trying to say that.  Only that, you have to be aware of differences between telling a story by writing a novel and telling a story through playing a role playing game.  You have to remember that there are other people telling the story with you who may have other agendas and interests in the game, and you have to remember the random element of the dice rolls and rules.  Between those two, the "story" won't always be told the way you hope it will.

And you're right about this...

I've enjoyed about a 33% success rate in establishing interesting, elegant, exciting plot lines without railroading my players, and I'm satisfied with that.  That's mostly for my benefit though.  The player of the WCV just wants to get to be nasty and imperious, the wizard's player wants to engage in daring action, and the Scion of Thor wants to smash things to goo.  So long as they're happy I've done my job as GM.  Trying to achieve some sort of elegance in the story telling is my fun.

So long as everyone is willing to meet halfway and compromise a bit, it can work, even with disparate play styles.

Roxy Rocket...  If you have a 4th Edition D&D Dungeon Master's Guide on hand -- or have someone you can borrow it from -- open it up to page 8.  There you'll find a section entitled "The Players" that runs for several pages.  It talks all about different types of players, what motivates them to play, how to get them excited in the game, how to keep them from getting bored and how to get them to play nicely with each other.  After that, read the following section entitled "The Dungeon Master", which gives advice on running a game and tailoring the action for different (and sometimes mixed) play styles.

Whatever else you might think of D&D 4E, those six pages are some of the best advice you'll find for the sort of problem you're having now.

The most important thing to remember, though is this:  Just because the other players enjoy a different aspect of role playing games than you do, doesn't mean their methods of playing is wrong or bad.  It's just different.  They're allowed to fun in their way, too.

That might mean you have to find other, more compatible players.  But I think it'd be worth trying work things out towards the middle...  You might find a way for them to enjoy more than cracking heads and making dumb jokes.  And might learn to enjoy kicking down the door and smashing the bad guys now and again.

Offline TheMouse

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 05:59:08 PM »
Urban fantasy can be difficult to play... 
Even worse, but Dresden Files is a kitchen sink style of urban fantasy. Not only are there lots of different mythical creatures, but there are often several takes on each one.

So there's a lot of room for different content without really breaking the setting. Want to run something like Supernatural? You could very easily do that without breaking canon. Buffy? If you stick to the show, you could pretty easily write off most of the things that go bump as local variations, since with very few exceptions it only takes place in Southern California.

With all that in mind, you shouldn't be talking to us. You should be talking with the members of your prospective group. Ask what their preferences are and see if yours and theirs are compatible. It's really best to get this stuff out of the way up front.

Offline sinker

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Re: Conflicts of style and taste...
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 07:06:36 PM »
I have been playing with members of the same group (different members off-and-on of course) for coming up on twenty years now. I still have this issue. Any time you have more than one person trying to work on a creative project, you're going to have some consistency issues. I was talking to a friend yesterday about the differences in our styles (he likes more mundane people facing local/small problems, and I like heroes on an epic scale saving the world) and we came to the conclusion that there was no way to make us both happy there. At best we could both be unhappy.... But we've figured out how to work it out by sometimes playing one, and sometimes playing the other.

I still think it's easier than the alternative. I once got so tired with all of the same issues that I went to the local gaming hangout to look for a new group. I left going "at least my group is better than that." It's always going to be tough finding a new group, because you're coming into a circle of strangers and essentially bearing yourself in front of them. You have no idea how they're going to react or interact with what you give them. I'm still looking for an alternate group, but now I'm doing it in a controlled and cautious manner. You should keep looking too.