Banking Character Gen Skill Points?

[toturi]

Our group started at one level.  When the number of skill points and refresh equaled the next level the skill cap rose - and they got the refresh before they got the skill points.  I suppose we could have raised the skill cap when they had the refresh points but it made more sense to wait until they had the skills needed for the next level.

Richard

I agree that it need not be just a matter of Refresh. If your game frequently clocks major milestones at a faster rate than recommended in the books vis a vis significant milestones, then it would naturally follow that the Refresh level of the group hits the next "level" before the skill points can do so.

But I think my point remains - the GM should at some point raise the skill cap, whether the player is banking his skill points or not.

[TheMouse]

But I think my point remains - the GM should at some point raise the skill cap, whether the player is banking his skill points or not.

No system exists for banking skill points. You spend them all at char-gen. End of story according to the rules as written.

[toturi]

No system exists for banking skill points. You spend them all at char-gen. End of story according to the rules as written.

If you can quote the rule that explicitly states that you have to spend all skill points at char-gen, I will accept what you said. If it is indeed, as you claim, rules as written, then I am sure you can certainly find the rule that states so clearly and unambigiously.

I disagree that no system exists for banking skill points however, it is explicit that a system for banking skill points exist (p89 YS).

[TheMouse]

If you can quote the rule that explicitly states that you have to spend all skill points at char-gen, I will accept what you said. If it is indeed, as you claim, rules as written, then I am sure you can certainly find the rule that states so clearly and unambigiously.

Every single example of getting skill points for char-gen involves you spending every point you get. Every single one. Even the example you name for page 89 where it uses the word "banking" in reference to points you get from Milestones, you still spend every single skill point you have. Without exception, every spot I can find that references you getting skill points has you spend them all, even if there isn't some general rule that says, "You must spend every single skill point you get."

Let me turn this around on you: Find a rule that says at char-gen that you don't have to spend all your points. Find an example that's not a mathematical error where some character built using the char-gen rules does not spend all their points. Find a rule the says you may do so explicitly.

I disagree that no system exists for banking skill points however, it is explicit that a system for banking skill points exist (p89 YS).

When they say banking points, they mean something different than what you're saying. You are talking about having points that are not spent. They aren't.

The example on page 89 involves spending your points on an lower level slot and then buying lower level slot before you can raise one of them to to a higher slot; this is in order to not break the skill structure rules. In no way does it at any point involve having unspent skill points.

[toturi]

Let me turn this around on you: Find a rule that says at char-gen that you don't have to spend all your points. Find an example that's not a mathematical error where some character built using the char-gen rules does not spend all their points. Find a rule the says you may do so explicitly.

The examples are just that - how you can theorectically spend the skill points you have. I am not the one claiming that having to spend every skill point is RAW, you are. Neither am I (nor did I) claim that banking skill points at character gen is RAW either.

You have skill points for char-gen. Spend them.

It is not explicit either way, which is why I did not take issue with your initial post in this thread, since in that post you did not claim that you have to spend them all, nor did you assert that spending all skill points is RAW.
As I read it, the example on page 89 also involves banking significant milestones in order to buy up a higher skill slot.

[gojj]

Let me turn this around on you: Find a rule that says at char-gen that you don't have to spend all your points. Find an example that's not a mathematical error where some character built using the char-gen rules does not spend all their points. Find a rule the says you may do so explicitly.
When they say banking points, they mean something different than what you're saying. You are talking about having points that are not spent. They aren't.

Your Story page 69: "That’s it. You’re free to fill in more details as you see fit, but that’s all you need to start playing. All the other decisions that you normally make during character creation can be done during play, revealing details about the character through the emerging story." It states clearly that you can begin play with only a skeleton of a character, I see no reason that you should be required to spend all of your points. I see no reason to hold off your points, not using them is just a waste in my opinion, but if there is some story reason for your character wanting or needing to hold off on skill points, go ahead. It's not a game breaker by any means in my opinion.

[TheMouse]

The examples are just that - how you can theorectically spend the skill points you have. I am not the one claiming that having to spend every skill point is RAW, you are. Neither am I (nor did I) claim that banking skill points at character gen is RAW either.

It's not explicit that you absolutely cannot take 10 Aspects instead of 7, either, but it seems pretty clear that's what happens. It's what the book says. They don't need to say, "You have to take 7 Aspects, no more, no less. 6 is no good unless you shall proceed on to 7. 8 is right out." They say to pick 7, so you pick 7.

In just this way, they tell you to spend your points, so you spend them. A common sense English reading of the text makes this clear.

As I read it, the example on page 89 also involves banking significant milestones in order to buy up a higher skill slot.

This is true. You do that by buying the lower slot and upgrading it. The line about banking is explicitly about Milestones, not skill points.

Your Story page 69: "That’s it. You’re free to fill in more details as you see fit, but that’s all you need to start playing. All the other decisions that you normally make during character creation can be done during play, revealing details about the character through the emerging story."

I wasn't talking about the optional on the fly character generation method. I was speaking about the regular rules for character generation that finish up on page 68. My apologies for any confusion.

[toturi]

You do that by buying the lower slot and upgrading it. The line about banking is explicitly about Milestones, not skill points.

I disagree. You can also do that by holding back on buying that lower slot (by banking the significant milestone/s) and buying the higher slot later, if doing so would not break the skill structure rules.

[Masurao]

The PDF-page 89 says explicitly you can bank skill points, or spend them on a new skill point. (In italics it says so again.) In this case, I assume you need a careful look at how you interpret the rules. If you follow the pyramid example on this page, you could say that if you throw up a skill to Good, you leave a Fair blank, which you could fill up with an Average slot, which means you need 2 Skill Points. If your GM allows this: hurray for you! Technically this is impossible, because neither of these skills could be singly upgraded, as the pyramid will not hold them up, therefore, you need an extra skill in the base to hold it all up. If you read the example closely, it still requires you to buy that new skill with the banked skill points, you can't just get a 1-point rebate if you shift all at once. Because in the example they are talking about getting a new Average skill to Good, not an existing skill to Good with that pyramid.

So, yeah, they say banking Skill Points, but the results are the same: you must uphold the pyramid.

My two cents about banking at char-gen would entail that you spend all your points, unless you have a very good character reason for doing so. Just being an amnesiac is not enough, because you either still need to flesh out his history, or be at the mercy of the GM as to what Skills your character happens to have. Think about it: if he was a soldier, but was hit in the head with a bullet, barely survived several years of coma and awoke without much of a memory, his body would very likely still have all the combat reflexes he learned (Athletics, Fists, Guns, etc.).

[Richard_Chilton]

My take:

If you use the standard character method you spend all your creation skill points at the stage that says:
"Once you have mapped out your character’s phases and chosen aspects, it’s time to pick skills, which are detailed in their own chapter (page 120)." (Pg 65)

If you are using  the "Minimal Preparation" you choose a "sample skill point spending patterns" and then say which skill is which later (again spending your skill points).

Then, as you hit milestones, you can bank the skill points you earn in milestones.


If the table wants to do things differently, that's great, but the RAW don't allow for the banking of your creation points.

Richard

[Richard_Chilton]

Your Story page 69: "That’s it. You’re free to fill in more details as you see fit, but that’s all you need to start playing.

The "that's it" comes after a step where you:
Choose one of the sample skill point spending patterns from page 65 of this chapter, based on the number of skill points the
GM has set for the game. Each available skill slot in the package should be written down as an empty slot on your character sheet to be filled later.

So after you briefly describe your character, choose your skill pyramid, choose a template, say what your top skill is, write out your high concept, and record your refresh level - then "that's it".

Richard

[ways and means]

As there is no direct rule prohibiting such a skill build that is good enough for me thanks all.

[Richard_Chilton]

As there is no direct rule prohibiting such a skill build that is good enough for me thanks all.

Um, the rules say to spend your creation skill points at this step (normal) or that one (on the fly).  The rules then talk about spending the skill points you gain at milestones.

There is nothing in the RAW that allows you do to do what you want to do.  If your table agrees with it, fine, but that's a house rule.

Rather than say "There's no direct rule against it" can you point to a rule that allows it? Otherwise it's like your PC throwing himself at the ground and missing (RIP Douglas Adams).  There is no direct rule prohibiting that from happening, but nowhere in the rules is any mention of anything that would permit Arthur Dent's odd mode of travel.

Richard

[UmbraLux]

There is nothing in the RAW that allows you do to do what you want to do.

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that some people will read the rules as "they state what you can do and that's all you can do" while others read it thinking "these are some cool examples, what else can I do within the spirit?"

Which approach you take is personal.  Which the two see as "RAW" will be very different. 

[TheMouse]

I missed the spot on 89 where it says that you can bank Milestone skill points. This is my error. You may bank skill points from Milestones so that you can purchase a higher rated skill rather than buying a lower rated skill and raising it as further Milestones come up.

However, this doesn't change my general point about char-gen skill points. There isn't anything that says you can bank those. The fact that there is explicitly a section of the advancement rules that calls out this exception only furthers the notion that you may not do so in char-gen; if you could, there'd be a similar section saying that this is the case. However, there is not.

Rules as written, you still spend your skill points from char-gen.