mindreading with a volunteer?

[Rubycon]

Hi,
a question came to my mind when I read through the laws of the white council: Is a mindreading a breaking og the third law, if the person whose mind ist read agrees to this?

[UmbraLux]

a question came to my mind when I read through the laws of the white council: Is a mindreading a breaking og the third law, if the person whose mind ist read agrees to this?

By the letter of the law, yes.  It might not get you the lawbreaker stunt but wardens probably wouldn't care...

[Richard_Chilton]

First, define "agrees".  Is it informed consent and if so how does the volunteer know what to expect?

When you enter another's mind you can leave pieces of yourself there while taking pieces of them out with you.  That mingling seems to be unavoidable and the basis for the lawbreaker effects of this law.

Also, what level of mind reading are we talking? Unless the person doing it is an expert (in a field that the White Council doesn't teach) there could be problems learning only certain things.

"Hi.  Would you mind opening your mind to me so I see something.  Oh, and while I'm there I might stumble upon your worse fear, your most embarrassing moment, your most repressed fantasy, and other things you don't want to dwell on, much less let someone else know." - I can't see many people saying yes to this, can you?


So if the person doesn't know (or understand) about the 'leaving parts' problem or the control issues, how they give informed consent?

Richard

[noclue]

Also, what level of mind reading are we talking? Unless the person doing it is an expert (in a field that the White Council doesn't teach) there could be problems learning only certain things.

not to mention psychic damage.

[tetrasodium]

Id say  it's a poentially strong yes based on how hypnosis works.  I've done a bit of naughty* hypnosis in the past where one of the first things you want to  is a metaphorical safety net ("anchor"/"trigger") you can yank on to help the subject calm down and relax into a nice safe state where they are calm and relaxed in case you trigger an "abreaction"**. and need to ease them back into a relaxed state quickly.  The more you work with someone, the easier t is to push them into the right sort of hypnotic state needed to do stuff. one person I haven't worked with in years (still a friend) i can still just say /relax/ in he right tone of voice/pacing to visibly relax them when they are stressed out.  They started dating someone else and got them interested in hypnosis enough to try it, the first thing they did was quickly undo most of the safeguards I had to keep others from being able to trigger them into things like hysterical laughter/orgasm/freeze in place all on command.  There was a lot of one off stuff I was able to do with this person simply by suggesting it in the right tone of voice after a while as well.  It definitely changed our relationship dynamic at the time.  I can only imagine how different it could have been if the subject's free will could not have stepped in to override suggestions they were not ready for/willing to do (it can and will with hypnosis!)

*bedroom fun & games style naughty not Evil/criminal style
** imagine triggering memories of rape/child abuse /other traumatic event or phobia the subject was hiding from you aand sending them into a state of panic where they might be a danger to themselves or others

[Farbot]

It seems from the strong negative reaction in the books to any sort of toying with the mind that all mind manipulation, no matter how well intentioned, is a no no. This would presumably be from the abovementioned complications of exchanging parts between reader and read-ee or other such complications.

Though if the only worry is repercussion from the white council... well then if you're very careful and the other participant is willing... then who's to say that it actually happened, right?

[Rubycon]

I simply thought about some scenes where it could be very important to get some informations where the one having these informations doesn't remember everything in detail and is willing to take the risk. "Informed consent" is the keyword, however. At least, when the White Counsil will take a look at it later...
What the White Council could do to discover such volunteered mindreadings? They simply find some out-of-their-mind people...

Could there be done anything to avoid the traces in one other's mind? Or could there be different levels of mindreading?

[Discipol]

You don't understand what mind reading means. Your mind enters his brain so it must hold two consciousnesses. This will create like brain lessons, and probably develop split personalities, or perhaps part of your mind gets cut or copied in his. Its not like Prof. Xavier. Think of it like two computers. To hack one, you go inside and leave a mark. Your computer has firewalls if you are volunteer or not. And those have to be taken down, the hacked computer has fewer resources to sustain the intruder.

Remember that mind magic + transmuting bodies are against the law specifically because its unnatural.

A soulgaze is different. The souls get to meet and poke each other, and even in this event leaves marks on each other's souls, forever. But the mind is fragile, and the body needs to function properly.

So even if I would volunteer, the process would leave me scarred and become a victim, where as the caster would have a stain on his soul of inflicting this damage on my mind.

If you want to read someone's mind, just ask him since he is a volunteer. If he is not, use some red vampire saliva on him. best trust detector out there, or put maneuvers on him via intimidate/rapport or break/shoot one of his arms until he is taken out your way. And you define he spills the beans.


From a game system point of view, mind reading is game breaking, leaving social mechanisms useless, plus you as a PC can get mind raped by major powers like the fey queens. Secrets have power and you wouldn't want that power stolen, would you?

[Rubycon]

Seriously, I don't get you.
As mind reading is not possible in our world, I certainly cannot understand what it means. As for this, I can discuss the consequences of mindreading for the (read: my!) game.
In the game (rulebook), two things are clear: First, mindreading is forbidden by the third law and second, mindreading is dangerous for both the reader and the "victim", be it a volunteer or not. Dangerous, however, does not mean "automatic" consequences, so  it would be interesting if there are ways to limit the dangers associated with mindreading.

And, last thing: mind reading is game breaking? uhh?

[Radijs]

'truth magic' and by exstention mind reading can have wide implications for an investigative game.

The most basic example: You're talking to the killed and ask 'did you kill mr X' and your lie detector goes *BEEP!* the mystery's over.
The same works for mind reading magic, you just rifle through the man's memories and turn up the incriminating evidence.

Of course without consent, its black magic in Dresden files.

[DFJunkie]

'truth magic' and by exstention mind reading can have wide implications for an investigative game.

Only if you assume that the word "reading" is literal rather than metaphorical.  If the viewer has to access memories as direct sense impressions rather than abstract thoughts it would probably be a lot more subjective, as well as a great deal more confusing and potentially stressful.

I'd say this is a good subject for discussion.  If the GM is good at trippy Kafkaesque dream sequences and is prepared for the possibility that some of his NPCs might get mind read I think it could add enjoyment to the game without crippling the plot, and if you don't want an NPC mind read just have him or her say "no."

[Radijs]

Hence why I said can have wide implications.

[SunlessNick]

By the letter of the law, yes.  It might not get you the lawbreaker stunt but wardens probably wouldn't care...  -  UmbraLux

I don't know that's true.  The letter of the Law is "invade," which by definition excludes permission.  Unlike the first Law, the third is written in a way that implies a manner and motive.  It still crosses the same lines of self/world either way, but I could see mind-reading with permission as a case where the Wardens might be more lenient than the Lawbreaker stunt.  So long as they believe you only looked at what you were permitted to of course.

[noclue]

I don't know that's true.  The letter of the Law is "invade," which by definition excludes permission.  Unlike the first Law, the third is written in a way that implies a manner and motive.  It still crosses the same lines of self/world either way, but I could see mind-reading with permission as a case where the Wardens might be more lenient than the Lawbreaker stunt.  So long as they believe you only looked at what you were permitted to of course.

Sounds like a game to me.

[Discipol]

A person's mind is not like a radio transmitter, you just need a radio station to get the info. Its more like entering a room with dirty feet, taking something then leaving, soiling the floor Even a powerful white wizard like the librarian guy from the books left his mark on the warden leader, and he sure did try to cover his tracks.

Yes, reading the mind is gamebreaking. The example the top dude is a good one. If batman could read minds there would hardly be a need for detective-ism, would it?

Also any high power could read your mind without any repercussions, since you either volunteer or die.