Military black-ops warlocks (no law talk...sort of)

[tetrasodium]

Someone else hit on the fact that these people would be closely monitored for abnormalities if they weren't the first ones.. which leads to... a "better living through chemistry!" style aspect with drugs of some form shown to have helped with the side effects of using these "psychic" powers. Potentially think up some alternate side effects to go with them

[sinker]

I kinda see a lot of the ways that lawbreaker manifests as being subtle enough to be missed, or much more likely misconstrued as a lot of other psychological issues that soldiers have to deal with. I do love the better living through chemistry idea simply because I see that as the most likely response the government would have to these people starting to break down.

Just to be clear I know a number of suggestions were on the effect of "follow the laws", but I really don't like that. The whole point is that, having no reason to believe that this is bad, these people are trained to do things in the most efficient way possible. Additionally I see this happening as part of an experiment to create these soldiers. They have no reason to believe that the experiment didn't work or wasn't the source of their powers, and no reason to believe that they don't hold the only talented people. They have no examples of psychics that are not soldiers (since they have no connection to the supernatural at all) so there's no reason that they would assume that killing with magic=bad, most likely they would assume that all psychics go crazy eventually. So even if the players are second or third generation psychic soldiers, it's quite possible that no one would make the connection between breaking the laws and going nuts.

As for the White council being involved I think that's totally up to the players. If they do their job well, then the White Council will never even know they were involved (because if they do their job right no one will know they were involved). If they decide to be really obvious and showy then I think that might be a great time for some wardens tracking them, which could lead to all sorts of interesting ideas (like the US government starting a secret war with the White Council that they still aren't really sure about).

Finally as I've said before I really do want these people to twist and to be bad and break laws. But I don't want the game to end a few sessions in.

[Masurao]

Finally as I've said before I really do want these people to twist and to be bad and break laws. But I don't want the game to end a few sessions in.

Well, that is your task as the GM as well. Are you going to encourage their characters to throw magic at everything until it works, or inspire them to find more creative ways? With or without the Lawbreaker Powers,  you can gently steer them down one path or the other.

One thing you mustn't forget is the fact that Lawbreaking (per the power) makes it easier to use magic in a similar manner in the future, which is the reason why untutored sorcerers go astray so often. If all your other efforts seem hard by comparison, you're more likely to choose the path of least resistance. Not only that, it actually changes you in the core of your being. So, as others have said, if you use the 'universe' presented in the novels, this factors in, if you adapt it, you can go wild!

The stress track that was suggested would probably fit your game best, if you want best of both worlds. Or you could go with something similar as the madness/insanity from Cthulhu.

[zenten]

I think making sure that the PCs have spare refresh for picking up Lawbreaker will work fine.

[devonapple]

Just to be clear I know a number of suggestions were on the effect of "follow the laws", but I really don't like that. The whole point is that, having no reason to believe that this is bad, these people are trained to do things in the most efficient way possible.

To be clear, my suggestions are predicated upon the established canon in which *knowledge* of the "Laws" is not a factor at all: these magical actions simply, universally, and indiscriminately corrupt mortals by laying Lawbreaker powers on them, whether they are White Council, warlock, hermit, honor roll student, or black ops specialist.

In the DresdenVerse, to propose an elite group of black ops specialists ignorant of the White Council be immune to Lawbreaker fallout is similar to proposing that radiation should not harm someone ignorant of radiation or its harms. It isn't a judgement of right or wrong, except insofar as there is an implicit Good and Evil at work in the DresdenVerse.

Lawbreaker, the stunt, is radiation damage to the soul. It can be avoided or, with sufficient tech/magic, minimized, but it's kind of out there as a "natural "law, even if the White Council is wiped out to the last wizard.

"Lawbreaker," the pronouncement made by the White Council, is a judgement by mortal Wizards against someone who may or may not actually have been twisted by the Lawbreaker power, but who probably did something they don't like.

Edit: that said, it could be a fun game, and I could see a benefit to ignoring those rules. But if the other spellcasters in the universe have to contend with it, then there should be a better explanation than "because black ops is badass" - perhaps some as yet unidentified Sponsored Magic.

[devonapple]

Finally as I've said before I really do want these people to twist and to be bad and break laws. But I don't want the game to end a few sessions in.

It's true. If the way to run the game you and your players want means dropping or reducing the Lawbreaker business, then you are free to do so. I think the stress track is a great compromise option, too. I also mentioned Sponsored Magic as a RAW way to do this without worrying about Lawbreaker.

[sinker]

Yeah, just to be clear I totally agree devonapple. The laws are universal and apply to everyone in exactly the same way, but in this case I want to dance on that line.

I think the best solution to represent exactly what I want to do would be for everyone to have enough refresh to spare, then I could still play with the line and everyone could twist as they break the laws but everyone would keep positive refresh and therefore remain PCs. The problem I'm seeing with that is I could see a large number of different talents working with this kind of thing. What if someone decides Cassandra's tears is their shtick (it would totally work in a leader and make a really interesting soldier) and that's it. They have no opportunity to break the laws whatsoever. So now they have 15 refresh just hanging out. That's the problem I see with that, so I'm trying to come up with an idea that allows some people to descend into lawbreaking while others don't.

[zenten]

Yeah, just to be clear I totally agree devonapple. The laws are universal and apply to everyone in exactly the same way, but in this case I want to dance on that line.

I think the best solution to represent exactly what I want to do would be for everyone to have enough refresh to spare, then I could still play with the line and everyone could twist as they break the laws but everyone would keep positive refresh and therefore remain PCs. The problem I'm seeing with that is I could see a large number of different talents working with this kind of thing. What if someone decides Cassandra's tears is their shtick (it would totally work in a leader and make a really interesting soldier) and that's it. They have no opportunity to break the laws whatsoever. So now they have 15 refresh just hanging out. That's the problem I see with that, so I'm trying to come up with an idea that allows some people to descend into lawbreaking while others don't.

In the game I'm running the PC with 10 spare refresh hasn't run roughshod over the PC with 1 spare refresh.  The powers you get (including Lawbreaker powers) compensate for the lost refresh.

[sinker]

Normally I'd agree with you, but from a power standpoint lawbreaker is half a refinement (that can only be used for control) with further limitation.... it's not really worth the refresh...

[admiralducksauce]

I would take the idea of a Sponsor from sponsored magic and use that to represent the downward spiral of these operatives.  I'm not saying give them Sponsored Magic or thamaturgy as evocation or anything, just the sponsor mechanics.

The sponsor isn't really an outside force so much as it is their darker desires after having Lawbroken. 

1.  It's simple.  No additional stress tracks, no differing refresh totals to balance.
2.  It's important when you want it to be.  As the "voice" of their dark side, you can play up their twisting morality and descent into blackest magic when you want to, not when they're just mindblasting some mooks to get at the meat of the current session.
3.  The Dark Powers Are Always Willing to Help (FP for Debt) has always seemed a better way to handle the temptation of power than a flat +1 bonus like Lawbreaker does.  It adheres more closely to the base FP economy as well, and promotes players to accept Compels as well, either to keep in positive FP or to force their hands when they're low and have accrued Debt.
4.  Doesn't necessarily need to be tied to spellcasters.  If you wanted a more general "descent into insanity" type situation, even your pointman with Cassandra's Tears can have "their darker side" as a Sponsor.

[sinker]

Oooh, I really like that. I salute you admiral!

[zenten]

Normally I'd agree with you, but from a power standpoint lawbreaker is half a refinement (that can only be used for control) with further limitation.... it's not really worth the refresh...

Except Lawbreaker applies to any element used, and covers both Thaumaturgy and Evocation.  It also doesn't tier the same way as Refinement.  It seems balanced to me.

[tetrasodium]

3.  The Dark Powers Are Always Willing to Help

Fred Hicks explained where that line came from originally in a recent amusing interview with him & Jim Butcher

[sinker]

I've been thinking about tech, and I had a question for those of you who are/have been in the military (I haven't seen Bear around lately). How much tech does your average soldier deal with when out doing something? How much standard equipment is high tech? Right now the only issue I can think of is communication, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

[Radijs]

The link's broken