Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")

[computerking]

OK. I’ve tried phrasing this question 3 times, and I can’t seem to get something that is easy to understand. So I’m just going to phrase it the way it’s rolling around in my head. In general, it is a question regarding allowability and the “flavor” of a spell’s effects. Here goes:

Let's say a player adds flavor to a fire spell effect description.  For example, instead of the standard gout or ball of fire flying at its target, the player wants to describe it as miniature imp-shaped flames flying from his hands. Without any prerequisite action like a Summoning spell, would a GM have to disallow this, although the player doesn’t intend to have the fire do anything different than normal fire, just look different?

In a similar vein, a Forzare-type Spirit spell  could just pile driver a target with invisible force, but could the same effect (But visible) be done by a Nichtomancer (Shadow-based Focused Practitioner) making a column of solid shadow to smash someone? Or would solid shadow be disallowed?

I used to play a lot of Mage: The Ascension, and coming up with weird unique spells still comes easily to me, I just haven’t fully sussed out what is allowable in the Dresdenverse.

Final example: Since Earth magic is linked to Electromagnetism, can an Earth based Block against leaving a zone be created by magneto-gravitically manipulating a flock of pigeons (who navigate via an ability to sense magnetic North) into kamikaze divebombing the zone borders (Lots of dead pigeons, ew)?

Yeah, I'm an odd sort of guy. You're just lucky I erased the post attempt involving spells from a Copromancer...

[JediDresden]

I am no expert, there are many on these forums who know more than me, but I believe you can describe the spell effect however you want.  A block is a block (or attack is an attack) no matter what theelement of medium of the spell.  I think the book makes the point that a shield of fire mechanically works just like a force shield.

In one of the books Harry sees a group of wardens all attack different ways; fire spells that look like lasers and shooting stars, etc.

[CottbusFiles]

You can do whatever you want to.

BUT. Evocation is mostly the quick and dirty throwing around of energy.
I don't really the (canon) Dresden Files Style evocation as something totally "über flashy cool". You can throw tons of water at people. But it is hard to make it into the shape of a Leviathan that coils around you before smashing into your opponent.
You can throw a rock at your opponent but not shape it into a fist before you do.

Evocation is hard and is really quick. It's gather energy, concentrate, point, boom.

I don't really see the Imp thing working in that way. It uses to much power of the spell to keep the fire in this unnatural shape.
Harry would say this is cute but stupid.

The shadow thing is okay

[EdgeOfDreams]

All of the examples you've given seem perfectly fine to me.

If a character can mechanically accomplish X with a spell, then what that spell looks/feels/tastes like doesn't matter at all, so long as it still accomplishes exactly X, no more, no less.

The only weirdness is when a player flavors a spell a certain way, then tries to get a mechanical advantage because of that.  This is often things like getting around an opponents armor or catch, or making clever use of scenery or terrain.  In these cases, it may be appropriate to ask the player to tag/invoke a scene aspect or one of their own aspects related to their style of magic in order to gain the added benefit.  Other times, you may just want to reward the creative thinking directly.

There's actually a section in the book (look for "A Block is A Block is A Block" in the Evocation section) that suggests you not worry much (if at all) about differences in elements and spell flavor, because at the end of the day, the mechanical effect will likely end up identical.

[Morgan]

I'd say that if all you're doing is adding color to your spells then that's just fine, it's when you want them to have a different effect because of that color that you might have some issues.

Take your basic blast of magical fire that does Weapon 5, I've had players describe that looking like all sorts of different things, hell I insist that they tell me what their blast of fire spell looks like. I've had basic fireballs, gouts of flame, waves of heat rippling though the air, even Chinese style dragons made of fire leaping at there enemies. Now the damage and every other thing about such a spell remains exactly the same mechanically no matter what it looks like.

So for instance if you want imps of fire to leap at and attack your opponent, that's fine just realize that you are not actually summoning imps you are making an Evocation Attack and using the image of imps constructed of fire as the spell's color/flavor. If you want to summon some actual imps, bind them to do your bidding and attack someone that is a totally different type of magic, and mechanics.

Shadowmancers flinging bolts of shadow at folks sounds like it would look awesome go for it, especially since you're Practitioner is basing his magic on the idea of magically controlling shadows to get tangible results. If you really limited shadow magic to what shadows can actually do it would be a pretty lame power.

Using Earth magic to manipulate a flock of pigeons sounds like a very cool idea again it is really just color/flavor the end result will be a block on a zone border, and I certainly wouldn't have any problem letting a player do it. After all it really isn't any different mechanically then if you'd thrown up a wall of earth or turned the ground into quicksand, a block is a block. However it is straying into lawbreaking territory, and if you're willing to sacrifice an entire flock of pigeons to stop someone or make your escape one day, then who knows what you might be willing to sacrifice the next?

[admiralducksauce]

Not only would your examples fly in my game, I'd be happy that you were throwing around more imaginative attacks than the bog-standard fireball.  As you say, it's just flavor, and that flavor is umami!   Carry on!  

[CottbusFiles]

even Chinese style dragons made of fire leaping at there enemies.

See, that is something that doesn't really fit into my view of the Dresden Files. (but i'm reading Ghost Story right now (not right now, but i will continue in the next few minutes) and there are a lot of completely new magic things seen in there). We haven't really seen such a thing in the Books.
It's cool as hell i give you that but it isn't really "throwing around the fundamental energies of the universe". I could see it stored in a magic item though...

[Morgan]

See, that is something that doesn't really fit into my view of the Dresden Files. (but i'm reading Ghost Story right now (not right now, but i will continue in the next few minutes) and there are a lot of completely new magic things seen in there). We haven't really seen such a thing in the Books.
It's cool as hell i give you that but it isn't really "throwing around the fundamental energies of the universe". I could see it stored in a magic item though...

To be fair the Dragon made of fire example happened in a fairly high powered, high action, convention game where I was really encouraging them to go wild and be descriptive with their magic. It was also a very powerful spell, something like a Weapon 9 attack, so I let it go cause it was way more interesting and descriptive than the standard I shoot a really big fireball at him. Though I agree that it might be a bit much in a home game.

[NicholasQuinn]

I'd say the Imps (even the Dragon stuff) fits, both in terms of the RPG and the DresdenVerse setting. I'm fairly certain the RPG book suggests that Cassius' snake spells are standard Evocation attacks/blocks/manoeuvres. Ditto for Justin's eels. Whilst as far as the DresdenVerse goes they might not quite be Evocation, they fit that way in the RPG, and it makes things interesting.

[CottbusFiles]

I'd say the Imps (even the Dragon stuff) fits, both in terms of the RPG and the DresdenVerse setting. I'm fairly certain the RPG book suggests that Cassius' snake spells are standard Evocation attacks/blocks/manoeuvres. Ditto for Justin's eels. Whilst as far as the DresdenVerse goes they might not quite be Evocation, they fit that way in the RPG, and it makes things interesting.

But they are Spirit Element Evocation, not elemental.

[wyvern]

It might be a bit much for a wizard using evocation, perhaps... but it'd fit right in with some kinds of sponsored magics.  (And, even if you rule that it's too complex an effect for raw evocation, remember that a sponsored magic has that whole thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation thing going.)

I've had someone throw a phoenix bomb in the game I'm running.  Of course, that's not quite what he thought he was doing... ahh, compels.  Good times.

[CottbusFiles]

It might be a bit much for a wizard using evocation, perhaps... but it'd fit right in with some kinds of sponsored magics.  (And, even if you rule that it's too complex an effect for raw evocation, remember that a sponsored magic has that whole thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation thing going.)

I've had someone throw a phoenix bomb in the game I'm running.  Of course, that's not quite what he thought he was doing... ahh, compels.  Good times.

Phoenix bomb ? It explodes and revives from the ashes ?

And you are right about the Sponsor thing. I had a player that essentially created Green Lantern like Spirit Constructs. He was basically Alan Scott powerd by Jean Grays phoenix force...

[NicholasQuinn]

But they are Spirit Element Evocation, not elemental.

I honestly don't see that as being important, but then, I speak about my own table; at yours (and others) it might be an important distinction. To me, the lack of it being a Spirit Evocation is covered in that nothing tangible is being summoned, it is simply how the spell is shaped. Harry (with his self-admitted substandard Evocation) may stick to simple concepts when it comes to his direct magic, but others have been shown to shape it more. Lily's butterflies spring to mind (yes, she has Sponsored magic, which alters things), or even to a lesser extent Lucio's laser-beam. I don't see it as being an issue if a player wishes to throw Imp shaped fire spells at someone; so long as it remains a direct spell with no mechanical difference. Especially if the character has a high control.

[sinker]

Actually, making fire into little fire Imps might be less effort to some people. The book points out that magic is entirely based on belief, not minor details like science. Harry believes that he's actually shaping the elements with his power, so his magic appears as a direct application of that element, but someone else could believe that they are summoning supernatural creatures that then manipulate the elements. For this person it would actually be more difficult to simply create a gout of flame.

[tetrasodium]

Thge only cannon bits of evocation was shaped by

(click to show/hide)

"something(the fist Uriel probably made when he gave harry access tio soulfire)" A fallen angel (thornedNamshiel's thorned vine thing),and the summer Lady(auora)'s poisonbrambles.

It doesn't exactly seem to be the sort of thing normal humans could do on the fly.  I'd try to strongly discourage it and only allow it if it was the result of some current/prior seventh law breaking or strictly enforce any attempt to play up the caster's skills/power using the shaping as an example of it as autofail... If they want a seventh law violation though... sure.