Author Topic: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")  (Read 6139 times)

Offline Llayne

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2011, 01:13:48 AM »
I'm with the 'it's all just visual' crowd. If fire can be fireballs, flamethrowers, heat waves, laser beams or shooting stars, it can just as easily be imp shamed fireballs.

The real question is why? What sort of twisted psyche finds it easiest to manifest their gift as imp shaped fireballs flying out from his body?   :P

Offline Haru

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »
Let's say a player adds flavor to a fire spell effect description.  For example, instead of the standard gout or ball of fire flying at its target, the player wants to describe it as miniature imp-shaped flames flying from his hands. Without any prerequisite action like a Summoning spell, would a GM have to disallow this, although the player doesn’t intend to have the fire do anything different than normal fire, just look different?
The important part is, that magic comes from what the character believes. Mechanically, there is no difference between fireballs and impballs, and it is a fun variation. I can practically hear the impatient voice of a master wizard telling his (not so talented at fire magic) apprentice "Ok, one more time. Imagine the imps I showed you, they are creatures of fire. Now remember what they looked like, what they felt like. Capture their essence and shape it. Yes! Yes, you did it! You finally conjured a gout of flame. Seems like our trip to the planes of fire really had an imp-act."

I apologise for the pun. Still, things happen a certain way, because your character thinks it is the way they are supposed to happen. If he connects conjuring up fire with the image of an imp, go for it. As a GM, I might even one day go so far as to have you accidentally summon a real imp. Maybe as a harmless pet, a Bob-like companion or a minor villain or all of the above would probably depend on my mood ;)

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In a similar vein, a Forzare-type Spirit spell  could just pile driver a target with invisible force, but could the same effect (But visible) be done by a Nichtomancer (Shadow-based Focused Practitioner) making a column of solid shadow to smash someone? Or would solid shadow be disallowed?
Why should it be disallowed? You are doing a standard magic action, namely an attack. How you describe it is up to you. Maybe the shadow is only a side effect from the spells energy bending light away, Einstein and all. Maybe the wizard is just conjuring stuff from the nevernever, that looks like shadows, but is actually really solid. Or you are sort of reverse-lasering, instead of focussing a beam of light you are removing everything, creating sort of a light-vacuum effect that results in a force against anything it touches.
Or you simply say "it's magical solid shadow" and roll with it.

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Final example: Since Earth magic is linked to Electromagnetism, can an Earth based Block against leaving a zone be created by magneto-gravitically manipulating a flock of pigeons (who navigate via an ability to sense magnetic North) into kamikaze divebombing the zone borders (Lots of dead pigeons, ew)?
I would allow it, I think. In fact, you would probably even be able to do a quick declaration of a "Flock of Pigeons" and tag it on your spell for more oomph.

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Yeah, I'm an odd sort of guy. You're just lucky I erased the post attempt involving spells from a Copromancer...
You're in good company. But what on gods earth is Copromancy?
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Offline noclue

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2011, 01:25:08 AM »
My decision would be totally based on context and tone. If it fit the tone of the game we were playing, it's fine. If it didn't fit the tone, then I ask for color that did.

So, if we're playing a Dresdenish game, I would probably allow a block from freezing a flock of pigeons in place (in our game one wizard vaporized a bunch of holy water as a Maneuver in a RCV fight and my sorcerer used earth magic to freeze the droplets in place to make a block). However, I'd probably ask that a fire imp really be a fire imp.

If we were playing in a different universe, with a different tone, I might allow a fire spell to look like an imp. Depends of context.

Offline computerking

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2011, 01:30:47 AM »

You're in good company. But what on gods earth is Copromancy?

Heh. Look up coprophilia, and shudder in disgust.  ;D

Thanks for all the input, folks! Keep the debate going, I like seeing the range of ideologies going on here!  :)
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PS: %^#@ Orbius. This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but whatever.

Offline Haru

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2011, 01:34:49 AM »
Heh. Look up coprophilia, and shudder in disgust.  ;D

I'll take my brainbleach to go, thank you very much. :o
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Offline tetrasodium

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2011, 03:34:11 AM »
Why should it be disallowed?

Remember the scene in Changes where Harry
(click to show/hide)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 03:52:48 AM »
I see no good reason to prohibit weird descriptions.

The game is not a Dresden novel simulator.

Also, the shape can't be used for intimidation purposes. Not unless you back it with a maneuver or Declaration.

Offline sinker

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 05:57:21 AM »
The shape can be used for intimidation purposes  and potentialy tagged as an aspect with the right sort of intimidation ploy

If one creates an aspect, then yes, it could be used for intimidation, but the same could be said of absolutely any spellcasting. That's not a unique quality.

My decision would be totally based on context and tone. If it fit the tone of the game we were playing, it's fine. If it didn't fit the tone, then I ask for color that did.

This I can agree with, you're always going to want any spellcasting to fit with the flavor of the game, but it will vary greatly from table to table, and even campaign to campaign.

Offline Haru

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2011, 10:52:11 AM »
Remember the scene in Changes where Harry
(click to show/hide)
. The shape can be used for intimidation purposes  and potentialy tagged as an aspect with the right sort of intimidation ploy

It can be tagged, if the shape is an aspect, and to do it as an aspect, you'd have to do a maneuver, not an attack spell. Remember in TC, there were at least half a dozen different types of fire attacks flying over the island.
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Offline CottbusFiles

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2011, 01:58:34 PM »
Remember the scene in Changes where Harry
(click to show/hide)
That could have been two spells, the second one invoking the consequence the first one inflicted
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Offline tetrasodium

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2011, 01:09:57 AM »
That could have been two spells, the second one invoking the consequence the first one inflicted
Yes it could have been but doing the imps as a single spell at no cost then tagging that as an aspect trying to play up the caster's control or links to some other being/source of power beyond that of their own should be disallowed without some kind of cost (i.e. increased difficulty, character aspect, etc)

Offline sinker

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2011, 02:12:52 AM »
What aspect is he tagging Tetrasodium? There needs to be an aspect for him to tag it, and mechanically this is no different from any other spell. It doesn't create an aspect for him to tag, period.

Offline tetrasodium

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2011, 02:23:05 AM »
What aspect is he tagging Tetrasodium? There needs to be an aspect for him to tag it, and mechanically this is no different from any other spell. It doesn't create an aspect for him to tag, period.
Lets say the GM brings in an ectual imp or something, the character could use the imp shape of their spell as an example of something to convey a link of kinship/trustworthyness/etc to it, similar things could be applied to many other situations not directly involving actual imps.

Offline sinker

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2011, 02:43:12 AM »
Then the character is maneuvering to create an aspect which he can tag in trying to persuade the imp, which he can do with any kind of magic.

There is no mechanical difference between two evocation attacks (gouts of flame or hordes of imps), or two evocation maneuvers (an imp aspect, or a food aspect). You're trying to create mechanical differences with thematic differences and were I GM in that situation I would simply call shenanigans and ask you to stop breaking the rules.

Offline tetrasodium

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Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2011, 02:50:36 AM »
You're trying to create mechanical differences with thematic differences and were I GM in that situation I would simply call shenanigans and ask you to stop breaking the rules.
my original point exactly, it should be made clear up front that it won't be tolerated if they attempt to play off the imp shape somehow