Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[MrsAWiggins05]

Harry wasn't a normal ghost because he was running around in his soul, rather than his spirit, as is normal. That's what he was told, anyway. I'd go look it up, but my copy is being borrowed.

[Snaps At Fireflies]

Harry wasn't a normal ghost because he was running around in his soul, rather than his spirit, as is normal. That's what he was told, anyway. I'd go look it up, but my copy is being borrowed.

This is true.  But what does this tell us?  I mean, if he didn't have his spirit, where was it?  My guess is still residing in his body.  This gets fuzzy, considering the interchangable use of both terms when talking about the same thing.  Not to mention the evasive nature of the characters saying things like "hey, if thinking of it like that works for you sure!!".    Obviously there was something special about Harry, as an archangel took a direct hand in his affairs.   In the final chapter, Mab mentions that she and Demonreach were highly pissed with Uriel for snatching Harry's soul/spirit to go do the adventure, implying that if Uriel had NOT done this, they could have restored him far sooner.   Of course this would not be in Harry's best interests in the long term, but it does imply that several abnormal factors were in play with Harry's ghost state.   I don't think it's simply due to him running around without his spirit.  I think that's PART of it for sure, but other things intwined as well, such as the fact that his body never truly died.   So you could in theory, say he was astrally projecting (or something similar in nature in the Dresdenverse) but that the rules for ghosts apply to that state as well.   

This would stand to reason, seeing as the same rules apply to spirits such as Bob too.  Avoid sunlight, thresholds don't like you, etc etc.

[john4200]

This is true.  But what does this tell us?  I mean, if he didn't have his spirit, where was it?  My guess is still residing in his body.

Either Mab or Demonreach (can't remember which) said that they took care of Harry's body while his "spirit" was not in the body. I distinctly remember them using the word "spirit".

EDIT:

It was Mab:

"Long have we kept flesh and bone and blood knit together and stirring, waiting for your spirit's return."

[Granny3]

Soul and spirit are inextricably intertwined according to some philsophies.  Difficult to separate them.

[Sunburned White Court]

JIM YOU MADE ME CRY YOU JACK***!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like, tears rolling down my face CRY! (yeah, I just finished the book) **takes a big breath** Well that does it. Already knew you were a fantastic author, you just confirmed it you P.I.A. Can't wait to see the next one!!!!!! **finishes sniffling**

[MrsAWiggins05]

Soul and spirit are inextricably intertwined according to some philsophies.  Difficult to separate them.

Yes, they are very hard to distinguish for most cultures and religions. In TDV, no one seems to quite be able to explain them, coming up with analogies like the soul is the soil the spirit is planted in and other such nonsense.

However, a study of all the Bible has to say on the subject makes it clear. The differences outlined in the Bible are what I based my opinion that Harry was a "special ghost." It is unlikely and improbable that Jim had these differences in mind when writing GS, making this a case of MrsA projecting what she knows onto what she's reading. Even so, if you reread GS with these differences in mind, it makes it pretty interesting.

What the Bible has to say:
The soul is the center of self. It contains free will, emotions, thoughts, memories, personality, and characteristics. It is often referred to as the mind. It is who you are in your deepest self. Unfortunately, it is in a world all by itself, unable to communicate with anyone/thing outside of itself. To remedy this problem, it is given a body that gathers and conveys information between the soul and the physical world. It is also given a spirit that serves the same function, but with the spiritual world. Physical death occurs when the soul separates from the body, taking the spirit with it.

The problem that we run into when comparing this information with TDV, is primarily: what is a ghost? If a ghost is someone's memories, then that would imply that a ghost is merely a soul. So why, then does it get pointed out to Harry that he's "not a normal ghost" and also that he's "running around in his soul"? Honestly, it just begs more and more questions. But then, I honestly don't think Jim said to himself "If the soul is self and the spirit is just a spiritual body...how do I make Harry a special ghost and keep him from dying while being separated from his body?"

[raidem]

Yeah, him being "not a normal ghost" and having more life than normal simply relates to the fact that he still maintains some connection to his body that is on life support.

[KymHH]

Thank you, Jim Butcher, for not killing Harry. Thank you, thank you, oh ...just thank you! Whew. (or at least, for not keeping him dead.) I have to explain- I have never been to this or any other forum concerning the Dresden Files... I am just an avid fan who had no idea if this was the last book or not. No interviews, no tidbits from other readers- nada... just the books. And I have been dealt horrible blows when other fictional characters I've loved have just been -poof-gone (Hello... both Spike and Angel??? At the same time??? If you get the reference, you know the sorrow of which I speak). I have experience the old, "Well this character is done and I'm anxious to move on to another series, so let's just finish this one up, hmmm?" of other authors. So I really had to come online and express my gratitude in the only way I could, short of going to Mr. Butcher's home and kissing him (which I somehow think he might not appreciate). THANK YOU. I'm telling you, I went from tears to joy in the space of 60 seconds and it was as awesome as any roller coaster I've been on. And after reading some of the posts here, I can see that there are people just as crazy about these books as I am- that aren't going to think I'm a little kooky for getting so emotional about it.
I got up at four o'clock this morning because I kept waking up, all night, thinking about Harry. I read the books on kindle and when a new one comes out, I like to do a marathon- read through them all again...which means that yes, I read the series about once a year, and Storm Front is practically memorized at this point (don't care, still love it, still chuckle out loud, still find pieces I missed the first 12 or 13 times) so I've been completely immersed from book one in the series for the past month. And I was at 88% when I reluctantly put it down last night (Battle in Molly's head)... but I needed to find out what happened so I finally gave up on sleep and got up to finish it. I never really thought this was the end- that Harry would be really dead, until I started reading it. And I still didn't think this was the end, while I was reading it..until the end...when he's crying into Mouse's fur and Uriel is explaining that Foo Dogs can live for centuries..and I got sick!My jumble of thoughts were something like, Oh no, he's going to really end the series? Harry's really DEAD? but- how is Murphy going to live with the knowledge that she dissed his ghost and now he's gone for good? How is Thomas going to feel when he finds out Harry was hanging out for a few days and never caught up with him? Has molly been driven past the PONR, and this is IT? No way, no no no!!!!! And I was sitting here, bawling my HEAD off, hardly able to keep reading and feeling a great deal of irrational anger at Mr. Butcher -May he write forever, I am sorry- and then this floodgate of sobs turned to laughter the second I read the line: A whole lot of pain.
Yay, Mab! Yay, demonreach! Yay, Uriel! Yay Jim Butcher!
I think this sums up my wordy post better then anything:

JIM YOU MADE ME CRY YOU JACK***!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like, tears rolling down my face CRY! (yeah, I just finished the book) **takes a big breath** Well that does it. Already knew you were a fantastic author, you just confirmed it you P.I.A. Can't wait to see the next one!!!!!! **finishes sniffling**

amen to that.

[habu987]

Yeah, him being "not a normal ghost" and having more life than normal simply relates to the fact that he still maintains some connection to his body that is on life support.

The way I took it, based on tidbits throughout the book, was that it was his soul gallivanting around, so he wasn't just a random spirit.  Not necessarily that he retained a connection to his body.

[WhoWalksBehind]

Jim I love you in a platonic non stalkish sort of way. Thanks for all the hours of awesomeness you have given me over the last 2 years.

Question 1: Is eternal silence a manifestation of Demon Reach? And why is he off his island which I thought he couldn't do. I.E: Harry's bond with Demon Reach only works on the island itself, intelectus. Which would mean that Demon Reach can not manifest beyond it or intelectus would work everywhere.

Question 2: What did you guys think of the new reader John Glover? Personally  I like James Marsters energy it just matches so well with the frantic action scenes. But I guess if we can't have Marsters the other guy was above average.

"Advanced technology, My Ass!" - Dresden

[topsail25]

Just a random thought and I didn't see this anywhere so I hope I am not rehashing another's thoughts.  How groovy would a Lash v. Lasciel throwdown be!  Metaphysical catfight anyone?  (Assuming a remnant of a remnant still remains, of course).

[mstorer3772]

Just a random thought and I didn't see this anywhere so I hope I am not rehashing another's thoughts.  How groovy would a Lash v. Lasciel throwdown be!  Metaphysical catfight anyone?  (Assuming a remnant of a remnant still remains, of course).

I don't think Lash would hold up very well.  At all.  Fallen angel's "thumb print" given free will vs FALLEN ANGEL.  I'm thinking "Oh, I left a smudge on the window... >wipe<".

[topsail25]

I don't think Lash would hold up very well.  At all.  Fallen angel's "thumb print" given free will vs FALLEN ANGEL.  I'm thinking "Oh, I left a smudge on the window... >wipe<".

     Good point.....perhaps if Lash and Harry (team Larry?) combine talents....Wily, crafty, snarkiness from Harry with a heavy dose of high octane White Knightiness and years of experience and know how from lash.....

[kapshus]

I see a lot of posts about Molly + Harry romance, but what about the opposite?  Given JB's propensity to torture Harry, wouldn't having Molly go all Sith-y on him, putting him in Obiwan role to Molly's Vader,  seeing his apprentice go over to the dark side, be some exquisite pain for our favorite wizard?  Or has this been beaten down in other posts as an option?

[kapshus]

     Good point.....perhaps if Lash and Harry (team Larry?) combine talents....Wily, crafty, snarkiness from Harry with a heavy dose of high octane White Knightiness and years of experience and know how from lash.....

My problem with anything discussing Lash, is that she was a photocopy stored in Harry's brain and those parts were damaged.  That means that he would have to regen those parts of his brain in order to bring back Lash.  I think the nerves are somewhat able to regenerate (see Harry's hand), but that brain matter is an order of magnitude less likely to regenerate.  Wizard Rashid not having both his eyes seems to lend some credence to the conclusion that there are limits to what a wizard can regenerate.

Now, if we're playing fantasy wizard league hypothetical, it would be interesting but I gotta believe that a fallen angel has more raw power to draw on than even a mighty wizard could lay claim to.