Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[Jared]

Well,
1) She almost always showed up as a separate entity when they were talking (any time it wouldn't be too much of a distraction for him), and the flashback Uriel was showing him is certainly not likely to be precisely representative of what a person standing there at the time would have seen. She's 'perceived' as an outside force, for the sake of being perceived at all.

That's reasonable.

2) I think you missed some of the point of this bit of my comment: 
I think (based more on cryptic comments from Jim than anything in the books to date) that Lash did survive in some form, but she may very well not be present in the same manner, or her voice (if she even has one at this point) might not have the power to properly balance the dark-Lash's comments.

I got your point, my response just wasn't clear. I was pushing against the Lies whisper being Uriel. If Lash is still a bit around and on Uriel's side, why couldn't she be the whisperer? Power-schmower, I'm not sure that's necessary for an explicit whisper whose sole purpose isn't to influence, but to remind.

But, if you do want power, I'd remind you what Uriel said to Stu in his job offer. Uriel can take the ruins of a spirit and build on it. I'd need to go back to what Uriel said about Lash's biting-of-the-bullet, but what if enough of that survived for Uriel to build on? [Partial </crazytalk> tag here.]

Or maybe Uriel just wanted to do it hands on, because he sort of promised Harry that he would.

That's a big maybe. <broken record>And given everything else in this series, it seems too easy.</broken record>

Oooh, thought just occurred to me. If Uriel had Lash do it, then Lucifer has to do one of two things: 1) acknowledge the possibility of redemption and that Lash is back in God's fold, or 2) assert that Lash is not working with Uriel, which would still leave Uriel with a seven-word whisper. Uriel wins either way.

Hmm. So the mystery remains.

Can we get this to be the motto of the DF Spoilers board?

[john4200]

You got me the on the whole Justine thing tho.... I think Jim cheated on that one just to give Thomas a booty call.

No, Jim did not cheat. It was all set up several books ago. I do suspect Jim just thought of the consequences, though. I have been wondering why Thomas and Justine did not do something like this ever since White Knight, when Lara was surprised that Harry had not had sex with anyone since Susan, so he was still protected.

[dantesparadise]

No, Jim did not cheat. It was all set up several books ago. I do suspect Jim just thought of the consequences, though. I have been wondering why Thomas and Justine did not do something like this ever since White Knight, when Lara was surprised that Harry had not had sex with anyone since Susan, so he was still protected.

To hop on a little here it seems to me that this would absolutely work because if I understand correctly in TC Madeline Raith suggest that if Justine made a conscious choice to sleep with some else then that protection would wane hence allowing Madeline to feed on Justine.  There was no indication that the love would die just that last touch on Justine would not be from the person she loved. So if the last touch on her is not that of her love then Thomas should be able to touch her to even though that would put the protection back she would be temporarily "cleansed" of it.

[LogicMouseLives]

But, if you do want power, I'd remind you what Uriel said to Stu in his job offer. Uriel can take the ruins of a spirit and build on it. I'd need to go back to what Uriel said about Lash's biting-of-the-bullet, but what if enough of that survived for Uriel to build on? [Partial </crazytalk> tag here.]

That doesn't really sound crazy at all at this point. Jim has said at different times that "Lasciel's story is not over," and "Lash's story is not over." There's even an as-yet unsubstantiated rumor that at one of the signings this week Jim confirmed that the "Parasite" in the final chapter is Lash. I won't be taking that for a fact until I hear or see a clip of him saying it for myself, but a lot of folks here have speculated the same thing.

Can we get this to be the motto of the DF Spoilers board?

I think it already is, unofficially. 

LML

[Lord Kasavin]

One question.

Who hired Stevie D, the pistols gunman who almost offs Butters in Changes?

Minor Changes Spoilers Follow

While I don't think this has been answered "for realz," the likeliest suspect was the Eebs.  Remember, old Red Court Vampires can take on different flesh masks, and thus Esmerelda might be able to look like Susan. 

Thus, fake Susan hires gunman, can't be traced back to the Eebs, and if Harry successfully interrogates the gunmen, it creates discord and distrust in his camp.

[rdaq97]

Why do you doubt it? I mean its awfully reasonable . I think its his mother, personally, because the amulet that showed Harry the Ways back in Changes held her voice. Though its possible that its Lea, since she is Winter and instructed to take care of Harry(or his body).

I think it was Mab.

[magic penguin]

I haven't read all he posts here, but i wil say I was so shocked when it was revealed that Harry arranged his own death that I yelled "What!!"  totaly out loud. I will also say I was right when I posted that his body would end up on deamonreach and the island would nourish him. I don't know how to post the site here..
But Mr. Butcher has once again set up Harry for super anguish.His daughter is right there in Chicago,
Will Harry tell her who he is and endanger her life?
Will Harry keep it a secret and see her grow up and orphan?
Either way it will be anguish for Harry not to be the father to his daughter
that he would want.
He could see her, talk to her as Michael's friend, but he would never be "family". to her.
what will Michael & Charity & family say about her parents?
so much inner agony for Harry...

[raidem]

I just was reading Fool Moon Ch. 20 and ran across the following regarding Harry meeting his subconscious and trying to get away from him.
My double slipped around me and got in my way before I could leave teh circle of light.  "Hold it.  You really don't want to do this."  I'm tired.  I feel like shit.  I'm hurt.  And what I really dont want is to waste any more time dreaming about you."  I narrowed my eyes at my double.  "Now get out of my way."  I turned to my right and started walking toward the nearest edge of the circle.  My double slipped in front of me again, apparently without needing to cross the intervening space.  It isn't that simple, Harry.  No matter where you go, there you are."  End.
Now the above phrase "No matter where you go, there you are" is the same statement that Uriel tells Harry in Ghost Story when Harry says the following.  "Just tell me something.   Something useful.  I'll be happy with whatever I get."  He (Uriel) pursed his lips and thought about it for a moment.  Then he said, "No matter where you go, there you are." 
Ok.  Now is Uriel wanting Harry to consult this "Subconscious Harry".  It in my opinion seems that way.

[Sgun]

As far as Maggie goes, first there will be this conversation :


Luke: How did my father die?
Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.


Followed by this conversation later in the series :


Luke: Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

[Glorificus]

I have been wondering why Thomas and Justine did not do something like this ever since White Knight, when Lara was surprised that Harry had not had sex with anyone since Susan, so he was still protected.

Justine was really physically and mentally hurt by Thomas' last feeding. It may have taken this long for her to recover fully, and be concerned about Thomas. He was taking care of himself pretty well for a while, until the Skinwalker, and I'm sure it took time for him to recover from that also.

LOOK, A HAPPY ENDING IN A DRESDEN FILE!!!!! 

(as far as we know)

[john4200]

Justine was really physically and mentally hurt by Thomas' last feeding. It may have taken this long for her to recover fully, and be concerned about Thomas. He was taking care of himself pretty well for a while, until the Skinwalker, and I'm sure it took time for him to recover from that also.

No, Justine was recovered enough by Turn Coat, if not earlier. I'm thinking of the time they met in the nightclub, in particular. And by the beginning of Changes, Thomas was certainly recovered enough from the skinwalker. And there were probably other opportunities. I think Jim just did not think of it until recently.

[xakko]

No, Justine was recovered enough by Turn Coat, if not earlier. I'm thinking of the time they met in the nightclub, in particular. And by the beginning of Changes, Thomas was certainly recovered enough from the skinwalker. And there were probably other opportunities. I think Jim just did not think of it until recently.

the question is whether whatever mental illness she was suffering through in Grave Peril that was ameliorated by Thomas's feeding was permanently "cured" when she almost died.  Then again, I haven't read "Even Hand" and I understand she was in that, so I may have missed this being addressed somewhere.

[ethanjf]

But that distinction is hardly relevant to the discussion of the parasite. Whatever Demonreach may encompass, the tree living on the island certainly would seem to be a parasite to Demonreach.

Also, a typical tree does not contain everything a human body needs for nourishment. So it would make sense for the nourishment to come from "here" (Demonreach, somewhere in its domain) and only be channeled through the tree into Harry's body. So "here" could provide nourishment (channeled through the tree), the tree (parasite) could circulate the blood, and Mab could provide breath.

I think Demonreach would hardly perceive a tree as a parasite: a parasite lives off its host without giving it anything in return. The tree takes energy from sunlight, turns it into sugars, "fixes" nitrogen in the soil, etc. What's more its dead body then nourishes the soil. The tree is much more akin to an organ of Demonreach's than a parasite of it.

[john4200]

the question is whether whatever mental illness she was suffering through in Grave Peril that was ameliorated by Thomas's feeding was permanently "cured" when she almost died.

Why is that "the question"?

[john4200]

I think Demonreach would hardly perceive a tree as a parasite: a parasite lives off its host without giving it anything in return. The tree takes energy from sunlight, turns it into sugars, "fixes" nitrogen in the soil, etc. What's more its dead body then nourishes the soil. The tree is much more akin to an organ of Demonreach's than a parasite of it.

That all assumes that Demonreach cares about fixing nitrogen in the soil or nourishing the soil. I don't know why it would care about that. Is it an environmentalist demon? A farmer demon? I don't think so.