Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[laura_be]

Karrin - How do you all think Murphy is going to react to finding out that a) Harry is alive , b) Harry arranged his own murder and all the consequences that came from it, and c) that Harry used Kincaid, possibly the only other male romantic interest for her other than Harry, to do it. Personally I saw this novel as the death knell for any possible romantic hookup between Harry and Murphy. It reminds me of Harry's reaction to Susan not telling him about maggie. "We're done, you knew it when you didn't tell me about my child" or something to that extent. I can't see Murphy forgiving Harry for what he's done to the city, his friends or her, regardless of him having the best of intentions.

Well, first of all, I think Karrin will feel betrayed. I mean, when they were talking in his appartment in Changes, when he told her what was happening, she put herself in the line for him, she promised she would be there to the end with him to get his daughter back, she compromised. But when the time came, he did not tell her of his suicide plan, that would be the motive she would feel betrayed, him hidding things from her. I think she could actually understand his motives for doing so, though. She knew what was at line.

What he did to the city? I don't know, the city went to hell because the Red Court was killed and yes, also because he was gone, but mostly because of the power vacum. I don't think she would hold it against him. Again, she knew what was in line when she set up to the mission with him.

I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.

[john4200]

I lost a lot of respect for Harry in regards to what he did to Molly.  I'd say that's probably the most effed up thing he's knowingly done in the series to date, and that goes beyond the whole murdering Susan thing.  It was truly a terrible thing he did to Molly, and I really hope he'll repair it over the next book or two. 

I did not lose any respect for Harry about that -- it is understandable. I agree it was a terrible thing to do to Molly, and that Harry owes her a huge apology and needs to make it up to her. But Harry's behavior was understandable. He was suffering great despair, having just found out that he had a daughter and she was going to die horribly while there was nothing Harry could do about it because he had broken his back. Harry was feeling utterly powerless, and was forced to choose between two things that were both utterly abhorrent to him -- fail to save his daughter, or embrace evil to obtain the power he needs to save his daughter. On top of that, in the midst of his despair, a Fallen Angel whispers in his ear just the words that the Fallen knows will cause Harry the most anguish.

So, Harry made a bad decision. Understandable, under the circumstances. Humans make mistakes when under extreme stress. Whether I lose respect for Harry depends on how he atones for his mistake.

One other thing I wanted to add: while I do not agree with this viewpoint, I think it is interesting that by forcing such a terrible choice on Molly, Harry was doing what Lea said he owes his apprentice -- not being easy on her. Forcing Molly to do difficult things on the no pain, no gain philosophy. Not a philosophy that I find totally convincing, but I recognize it as a reasonable viewpoint for a teacher to take with a student, as long as it is not taken to extremes.

[Daredeval]

Also, one other thing: Molly must be frigging awesome at mind magic. we've already seen Mab perform a little brain-work on Harry, so I think it's safe to assume she knows the signs of tampering. So either she knew about Harry's eventual betrayal and made her own plans... or Molly hoodwinked the Queen of Air and Darkness. Which is pretty impressive for a twenty-something.

[boris]

Part of the story was completely about sympathy towards molly, how she s grown up, even going as far as to the going "inside" comment and everything else. Part of the book has been to set things going for a harry-molly relationship. As far as murphy harry are concerned, there have been too many betrayals on that front, and Murphy will get darker. In the end however, she ll pick up the sword and see light. We ll see a lot of animosity between Molly and Murphy in the next book, and the whole Harry-Molly-Murphy being cold, and then Harry being the 'winter knight'.. Hence 'Cold days'.

I suppose another part of the interesting story in the next book will be How things shape up between fix and Harry and Lady summer, now that he has finally picked up the mantle of winter knight.I wouldnt put it past fix to run away from Harry

It also means that Murphy will have to get really dark before picking up the sword for the light, and she probably will not do it for a few more books. She may even not do it until the finale trilogy.

[Autra]

I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.

Am I the only one who thinks that Murph already suspects that it was Kincaid that killed Harry? Didn't it say in the book that she almost went out of her way to not mention him as a suspect?

I'm about a third of the way through my second read through, so I might be mistaken, but that's something that kind of popped out to me last night. Well, second FULL read through. I went back and reread the last 125 pages or so last night, because the final 'scenes' were just great.

As for how angry she'll be when she finds out that Harry set it all up himself, I really don't know if it's going to be a HUGE problem. I mean, I'm sure she'll be pissed, but I think that if she finds out that he didn't even mention it to Thomas, it might mollify(heh) her a little bit.

[Sir Huron Stone]

I'm kinda sad we didn't see much of Kincaide. It would've been cool to have him show up and help out with Corpsetaker, and then tell Harry what happened.

[LordScythe]

LOL. So much input on the relationship front.  I don't think Harry will end up with either Molly or Karrin.  I am pretty sure he will end up with Lash.  

I know it seems like a stretch but hear me out.  Bob said that Lash took a piece of Harry's soul.  We know Harry was rewarded for turning down a fallen angel with soulfire.  It is not unreasonable to assume that Lash was also given a reward.  Remember Harry has free will and was able to make a choice.  Lash is a shadow of Lasciel and has a nature.  She rebelled against her nature, the nature of a Fallen Angel. I  think she will be rewarded with the gift of being human.  Though it is possible she has become an angel and is the one truly sponsoring Harry's soulfire!

I would also like to add that Harry as the Winter Knight amplifying his own power plus the sponsored soulfire has to be close to the same power as that of the senior council.   I doubt that many off the senior council would be much of a match for Harry!

The white council needs Molly.  Their training in defensive mental magic is sub par at best.  I suspect that she is well ahead of 90% of the White Council in defensive mind magic.  Hell, she lasted way longer against Corpse-taker than either Harry or Lucio ever managed.  

[john4200]

1. The Sidhe cannot -knowingly- tell a lie. Mab could believe harry is hers, especially after bending so many knights before him to her purposes.

Harry thinks she knows: "You can't make me your monster. Doesn't work. And you know it."

[Quester]

Well, first of all, I think Karrin will feel betrayed. I mean, when they were talking in his appartment in Changes, when he told her what was happening, she put herself in the line for him, she promised she would be there to the end with him to get his daughter back, she compromised. But when the time came, he did not tell her of his suicide plan, that would be the motive she would feel betrayed, him hidding things from her. I think she could actually understand his motives for doing so, though. She knew what was at line.

What he did to the city? I don't know, the city went to hell because the Red Court was killed and yes, also because he was gone, but mostly because of the power vacum. I don't think she would hold it against him. Again, she knew what was in line when she set up to the mission with him.

I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.

Not to be mean or anything but the Harry at the moment didn't know that he had set himself up to go boom. And yeah I was never a Harry/Murphy shipper, alway be more frineds then girlfriend. lol, but I think this prob but the kobosh on it EVER happening. Just hope it doesnt destroy their friendship as well.

And as for everyone that complaining about the way he did Molly. He knows how messed up what he did is. At a moment in his life when he was thinking about only one thing, he hurt many of the people he cares about. But what eating him the most, from my pov, is how close he come to destroying Molly.

[omfgitsbacon]

I had a different place for Maggie Sr. to show up (by the way, thank you to all of you who post regularly, i haven't had this much fun dissecting a book since college).  When Harry materializes, the only thing he doesn't have is his pentagram amulet.  Maggie Sr. gave him the amulet, and then in Changes the insert which contained her knowledge of the Ways... so does it make sense that she's the "parasite" who's making his blood flow on Demonreach?  Perhaps a shade of herself (like Lash was) is actually imprinted on the amulet... which would be really fun if Harry were to give little Maggie his amulet to help her in her training when she discovers her magical powers...

Then again, i might just be suffering from sleep deprevation  ... thank you, thank you, thank you Mr. Butcher - these are amazing.

You know? Is it possible for it to be Lasciel? I mean she was a major(I thought she was major) to Harry's development. 

[omfgitsbacon]

Am I the only one who thinks that Murph already suspects that it was Kincaid that killed Harry? Didn't it say in the book that she almost went out of her way to not mention him as a suspect?

I'm about a third of the way through my second read through, so I might be mistaken, but that's something that kind of popped out to me last night. Well, second FULL read through. I went back and reread the last 125 pages or so last night, because the final 'scenes' were just great.

As for how angry she'll be when she finds out that Harry set it all up himself, I really don't know if it's going to be a HUGE problem. I mean, I'm sure she'll be pissed, but I think that if she finds out that he didn't even mention it to Thomas, it might mollify(heh) her a little bit.

Timeout I think we are forgetting a major detail about Harry's decision to arrrange his own murder. Firstly that despair and reasoning wouldn't have come about if it was for the Fallen Angels whispers. Or more precisely, that LEVEL of despair and reasoning. The line the Angel imprinted in him forced Harry to conclude his existence had to end because he would be turned into a monster at the end of the quest. However, that eliminates his ability to make a choice, thus Uriel stepped in. I'm pretty sure Harry would've said something like "screw the role of Winter Knight, I'm harry Dresden" or something.

[laura_be]

Not to be mean or anything but the Harry at the moment didn't know that he had set himself up to go boom. And yeah I was never a Harry/Murphy shipper, alway be more frineds then girlfriend. lol, but I think this prob but the kobosh on it EVER happening. Just hope it doesnt destroy their friendship as well.

And as for everyone that complaining about the way he did Molly. He knows how messed up what he did is. At a moment in his life when he was thinking about only one thing, he hurt many of the people he cares about. But what eating him the most, from my pov, is how close he come to destroying Molly.

Oh, I get it that Harry didn't know, or more precisely he didn't remember setting up his own murder. But him planning such a thing, not thinking about his friends, etc. That would make Murph feel betrayed, I think. But eventually, she would understand it. I think their relationship will be threaten but more because of the bad place she's in right now, more than for the implications of what he did. She knew him well enough to know and understand his motivations at that point. I honestly, don't know if they will or won't end up involved. I ship them (have no shame in admitting that) but I value their frienship so much more. Like you, I hope what's happened doesn't brake that. I think it will strain it, yes. But not break it.

About Molly, I agree, he knows what he did to her, and he feels terrible for it. Molly was his big concern in this book, like his daughter was in Changes. He feels responsable for everything that happens to her. And he should, to some degree. She agreed to it, after all.

[jphendren]

Timeout I think we are forgetting a major detail about Harry's decision to arrrange his own murder. Firstly that despair and reasoning wouldn't have come about if it was for the Fallen Angels whispers.

I don't think anyone has attempted to dispute that fact, not do i disagree that the fallen whispering to him was ultimately responsible for him attempting to end his own life. What I take umbrage at is the fact that he USED molly to further those ends. Sure the fallen may have convinced him that he had to kill himself to protect those he loved, but I certainly doubt that it told him he had to involve Molly to the extent of being completely complicit in the death of the man she loves most in the world. She flat out told him "do you know what this is going to do to me?" in terms of destroying her heart, and he forged on ahead sure of the righteous nature of his actions.

Let's be sure of one thing here, i'm not saying that this has destroyed my faith in Harry, quite the contrary. It's made him seem even more human, more relatable, as he has F'd up huge here. But it's still, by far, leaps and bounds worse than anything he has consciously chosen to do in the series so far, and to do it to someone that he loves makes it worse still.

[jphendren]

That being said, it's still going to be amazing to see how he repairs the relationships that he damaged in Changes/Ghost Story all the while balancing the demands of Mab/Chicago/White Council.

Only another year and a half (hopefully) until the next time I don't blink for 5 consecutive hours.

Bring it on!

[Sgun]

That being said, it's still going to be amazing to see how he repairs the relationships that he damaged in Changes/Ghost Story all the while balancing the demands of Mab/Chicago/White Council.

Yeah...I see Harry having to drop everything and haul ass somewhere to keep Eb from having an epic throwdown with Kincaid. Then stepping between Kincaid and Murphy for the same reason....only Murphy not letting him. Will be interesting.