Author Topic: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**  (Read 258010 times)

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #405 on: August 20, 2011, 11:53:31 AM »
It is more than just strength. There is skill. Most, if not all, Senior Council members would beat Harry in a fight, since they are much more skilled and experienced.

You are right of course, but if my optimum estimation of Harry's raw strength is true, it is still a bit scary. The minimum one is fine though. If he only have the same approximate strength as senior council member without the skill, the story can still reasonably continue without making Harry over powered.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline ImmortalPolka

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #406 on: August 20, 2011, 03:54:00 PM »
It is more than just strength. There is skill. Most, if not all, Senior Council members would beat Harry in a fight, since they are much more skilled and experienced.
Skilled, yes, but skilled at what? Skill and experience are fine, but are the skills you've refined applicable to the task at hand?

If there had been any doubt before now, it was made explicit in GS; Harry has been shaped and forged to be a weapon. And he's not just a blunt object. Beyond his own experience, which focuses seemingly almost completely on conflict, Harry is extremely canny, a skilled tactician (in general and on the spur of the moment), highly intelligent, gifted with a great natural talent for magic, not given to hubris and not least of all mentally and physically tougher than nails. And that was before he got the Winter Knight juice up.

Right now, two wizards enter, one wizard leaves, I'd put my money on Harry over any WC Wizard except the Merlin, Eb and Rashid. I'm not saying he'd waltz in and one punch everyone or even anyone. But last man standing (or maybe knocked on his butt but still breathing)? Dresden. I'm sure there's even a few ringers in there that would come much closer to punching Harry's ticket than you'd ever think, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. :)

Of course the problem Harry would face is that the WC wouldn't be coming after him one on one like it was some bad TV reality show. They'd come in force, game faces on and loaded for bear. For Mouse even. ;)

[Shoot. Rereading I see you were referring specifically to Senior Council members, and I was thinking White Council wizards in general. What the heck. I'll still roll with it. SC members would rip Harry a new one or two in the process, but I'll still back Harry and his junkyard dog X-factor, with the exception of the three members I named.]
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 03:57:48 PM by ImmortalPolka »

Offline john4200

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #407 on: August 20, 2011, 08:08:58 PM »
Skilled, yes, but skilled at what?

Everything. When you are hundreds of years old, having survived many challenges, you tend to pick up some skills.

As for tactics, Harry is not very good. He gets in a lot of fights when he has not prepared sufficiently (sorely lacking in background knowledge and suitable tricks), and a lot of his successes have been pure luck or getting saved by someone else.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 08:13:42 PM by john4200 »

Offline polarglen

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #408 on: August 21, 2011, 12:56:33 AM »
I'm in the minority here, but the whole thing reminded me of Trek's solution to a writer writing him/herself into a corner -- aliens playing mind games.  In this case, bad angel playing mind games.  Didn't work for me. 
"The answers to our questions lie outside the fences we build around our thinking."  Ben Brusa

Offline ImmortalPolka

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #409 on: August 21, 2011, 01:07:54 AM »
Everything. When you are hundreds of years old, having survived many challenges, you tend to pick up some skills.
We've been shown that all wizards have their strengths and weaknesses, not to mention that some things are just a matter of talent or a lack thereof. I stand by the assertion that Harry has talent, training, skill and experience in mayhem that few on the council can match.

Quote
As for tactics, Harry is not very good. He gets in a lot of fights when he has not prepared sufficiently (sorely lacking in background knowledge and suitable tricks), and a lot of his successes have been pure luck or getting saved by someone else.
Again, I beg to differ. Tactics are how you handle yourself when the rubber hits the road, in the heat of battle. Harry not only excels as a tactician, it's one of the things that's kept him out of a grave up until now.

Now, Harry the strategist, the long view thinker? Well, I think his record there stinks... um, I mean "speaks"... for itself. :)

Offline john4200

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #410 on: August 21, 2011, 02:36:09 AM »
Tactics are how you handle yourself when the rubber hits the road, in the heat of battle. Harry not only excels as a tactician, it's one of the things that's kept him out of a grave up until now.

I'm aware of the definition of tactics and strategy, but I'm not interested in getting into a semantic argument.

Anyway, Harry's tactics are not very good. He often just lashes out blindly with all his power when he should be holding back at first, playing a defensive game, or even cutting and running. And he does not make good use of what he has. To give an example, consider the two times he has used soulfire constructively (as a big hand against the Denarian and as a rope against the skinwalker), it has been extremely effective. But most times all Harry uses it for is to supercharge his fire attacks, which wears Harry out quickly. That is not good tactics.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #411 on: August 21, 2011, 02:51:38 AM »
We've been shown that all wizards have their strengths and weaknesses, not to mention that some things are just a matter of talent or a lack thereof. I stand by the assertion that Harry has talent, training, skill and experience in mayhem that few on the council can match.
Again, I beg to differ. Tactics are how you handle yourself when the rubber hits the road, in the heat of battle. Harry not only excels as a tactician, it's one of the things that's kept him out of a grave up until now.

Now, Harry the strategist, the long view thinker? Well, I think his record there stinks... um, I mean "speaks"... for itself. :)

What I meant by skill here is skill with magic. Harry looks to be very good in battle magic. But if you really think about it , he is not really good. Very powerful, overrall good in a fight. Yes. but not very skill in a finer sense. Let us compare it to the phisical equivalent like Murphy. Murphy is small, and in terms of strength he is rather weak. but even so, she is one of the best fighter out there. That is what I meant by skill.

True that Harry have face many things stronger than him. But he is not the Mr. Miagi in magic. He is more like a Thug. A thug that have more expirience and trainning, Yes. but a thug all the same.

As long as his raw strength is not too overpowered, there is still many things out there that can give Harry a hard time. And I am one of those people that likes to see Harry get pounded and only escape by the smallest of margin and with a whole lot of injury, pain, complaints, and misery. It is fun!
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Snipee

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #412 on: August 21, 2011, 08:32:58 PM »
Wikipedia said that Molly showed Harry a vision of her family aging and dying off and how she can only love him. Um. Which page was it?

Offline lewis

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #413 on: August 21, 2011, 09:15:31 PM »
What I meant by skill here is skill with magic. Harry looks to be very good in battle magic. But if you really think about it , he is not really good. Very powerful, overrall good in a fight. Yes. but not very skill in a finer sense. Let us compare it to the phisical equivalent like Murphy. Murphy is small, and in terms of strength he is rather weak. but even so, she is one of the best fighter out there. That is what I meant by skill.

True that Harry have face many things stronger than him. But he is not the Mr. Miagi in magic. He is more like a Thug. A thug that have more expirience and trainning, Yes. but a thug all the same.

As long as his raw strength is not too overpowered, there is still many things out there that can give Harry a hard time. And I am one of those people that likes to see Harry get pounded and only escape by the smallest of margin and with a whole lot of injury, pain, complaints, and misery. It is fun!

In all the earlier books he said his talents didnt lie in evocation but instead in finding things and generally things that would help a PI.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #414 on: August 22, 2011, 01:50:12 AM »
In all the earlier books he said his talents didnt lie in evocation but instead in finding things and generally things that would help a PI.

Thinking about it, I do not recall that there is ever any mention about Harry's particular talent. I mean, Molly is very good with veils even without being tought. Maybe this is due to the fact that Harry only have little official trainning from Du'Morn, but the only time he got complimented for exceeding excellence in magic is when Bob said in Proven Guilty that Harry have talent in creating 'Little Chicago. The rest of the time he just got complimented for his brute strength.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline LordScythe

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #415 on: August 22, 2011, 01:58:32 AM »
He says in several of the books or several times in the same one he is very good at Thaumaturgy.  IE making blasting rods, staffs, armored coats, energy rings, shield bracelets and finding things!  That is Harry's specialty!
"Go be STUPID on your own time!" Lord Scythe

Offline lewis

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #416 on: August 22, 2011, 07:33:32 PM »
He says in several of the books or several times in the same one he is very good at Thaumaturgy.  IE making blasting rods, staffs, armored coats, energy rings, shield bracelets and finding things!  That is Harry's specialty!

Yeah that's it and he always said evocation wasnt his forte hence the mention foci.

Offline Ziggelly

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #417 on: August 22, 2011, 08:42:33 PM »
I'm pretty sure that his amount of power is a natural skill in itself. He's good at taking, storing, and using massive amounts magical energy.
He'd be a pretty awesome necromancer, as well, if he wished to be so. I doubt there are more than a handful of other wizards who could have pulled off Sue without major preparation.

Offline LordScythe

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #418 on: August 22, 2011, 09:08:17 PM »
Actually I think he would be good at any kind of magic if he believed he would be.  Belief is huge in the casting of magic in the Dresdenverse. 
"Go be STUPID on your own time!" Lord Scythe

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #419 on: August 23, 2011, 02:23:31 AM »
The problem about Harry's particular talent is that rarely he got somebody in the book other then himself who rated his skill. And if there is, it is rarely someone with enough credibility.

Harry said he is good with Thaumaturgy but that is just his own opinion and it can be argued that he just think himself good in those area because he is been doing that for years. No particular gifted talent there.

If we say he is good with creating enchanted items: armored coat, energy rings etc, Well, in Death mask, when Susan ask him why he do not carry enchanted items like the rope he use to tie Susan, he said he is not good enough. At the same time, we find out in White knight that Ramirez, who approximately the same age as Harry in Death mask, perhaps even younger, can make a shield glove with the principle of entropy which probably is as good as any of Harry shield bracelet before White knight.

When he animated the T-rex in dead beat, he told Ramirez that is just hard work, not complicated. Again we can argue that it is just Harry being modest, but no one other then Ramirez compliment it, and Ramirez is just a young wizard with limited amount of magical muscle. He do not have enough expirience to rate that feet and due to his own limited amount of strength, he might think that Harry's feet in animating the T-rex is impressive because it is beyond his own strength.

If we say that his massive strength is a skill by itself, well, nothing to be argue there. That is only a matter of oppinion.

Other then Bob's comment in Proven Guilty about Harry having a gift creating things like 'Little Chicago, we do not have anyone with significant level of magical expirience compliment Harry on a particular magical feet.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.