How to enchant a weapon? Not a Warden's sword!

[UmbraLux]

@sinker:  Activating an enchanted item is not always an action separate from using it.  Defensive items are clearly reactionary (YS280) and items such as Harry's rings appear to be used as part of the attack.  For that matter, the text on YS279 appears to tie activation rolls primarily to targeted spells.  "It's possible that using an enchanted item will require some kind of skill roll, particularly if it needs to be targeted..."

@benign:  We're discussing more than just tags.  It's also worth noting enchanted items and potions often give you a free tag outside of the scene where you set them up. 

[CaptFisher]

So if I am following the post correctly we have two possible options being discussed here

1.  A real sharp sword (weapon 2) being enhanced via magic to weapon 4 twice per session. (Lore 4/frequency crafting bonus) The magic is the attack so all done in one swoop.

or

2.  The same sword...or maybe a not sharp replica...easier to get by those pesky mall cops...that is transformed into "Incredibly sharp" by the magic twice per session.  It then becomes weapon 2 with a free tag on the aspect to bump it up...it remains sharp for the scene and then fades waiting to be activated later. An action to activate the sword at the start of the fight then an action to attack and tag the aspect.
(it was just created at the start of the scene so that works for each activation of the power)

Both seem like good options just a matter of flavor...But in both cases..How would they recharge?

[Tsunami]

Or are you talking about creating the aspect via maneuver and then tagging it?

Yes i am.

With Activating the aspect i meant activating the enchantment to create the aspect. I see how that could be misunderstood.

[Tsunami]

... and items such as Harry's rings appear to be used as part of the attack.

They are not used as part of the attack. Using the Rings IS the attack.

For that matter, the text on YS279 appears to tie activation rolls primarily to targeted spells.

Activating the Maneuver would not need a roll, but it would still take up the normal action for one round. forcing you wait to the next round to attack.

But i'm just realizing that we are starting to talk in circles here.

Lets just sum up

If the Enchantment is an attack, for example Weapon:4, 2 times per session, then using that enchanted item IS the attack.
Hence 1 action to attack with the enchanted sword.

If the Enchantment is a maneuver that creates an aspect on the sword, for example "absurdly sharp", then activating this enchantment to create the aspect is one action, and attacking with the blade while tagging the aspect is another.
Hence 2 actions to attack with the enchanted sword.

2.  The same sword...or maybe a not sharp replica...easier to get by those pesky mall cops...that is transformed into "Incredibly sharp" by the magic twice per session.  It then becomes weapon 2 with a free tag on the aspect to bump it up...it remains sharp for the scene and then fades waiting to be activated later. An action to activate the sword at the start of the fight then an action to attack and tag the aspect.
(it was just created at the start of the scene so that works for each activation of the power)

Both seem like good options just a matter of flavor...But in both cases..How would they recharge?

Actually, in case of  version 2. One would most likely reduce the power to 3, so that a fragile aspect is generated, and put the remaining shifts into uses. The aspect would then stay for 1 round, giving you just enough time to benefit from the free tag. Taking the values the OP gave in the first post that would mean a fragile aspect, three times per session. And as usual more uses can be gained by taking 1 point of mental stress.

Recharging would happen automatically between sessions, it's part of how enchanted items work.
Narration of this recharging process, if necessary, is totally up to you.

[UmbraLux]

They are not used as part of the attack. Using the Rings IS the attack.

Yes, that was my point.

Taking two actions to 1) activate and 2) use an enchanted item appears to be an exception, not the rule.  Enchanted items causing Attacks are canonically a single action (the attack / targeting roll), Blocks are canonically a single reflexive action (part of the defense), and Maneuvers appear to be left up to individual groups without any overt comments one way or the other.  I tend to go with what makes sense for the item.  A potion obviously needs to be drunk but a tailored shirt enchanted to put the aspect Well Dressed Man on it's wearer could be used at any time while its worn.

[CaptFisher]

Actually, in case of  version 2. One would most likely reduce the power to 3, so that a fragile aspect is generated, and put the remaining shifts into uses. The aspect would then stay for 1 round, giving you just enough time to benefit from the free tag. Taking the values the OP gave in the first post that would mean a fragile aspect, three times per session. And as usual more uses can be gained by taking 1 point of mental stress.


Recharging would happen automatically between sessions, it's part of how enchanted items work.
Narration of this recharging process, if necessary, is totally up to you.
[/quote]

I don't think i would play it that way myself, the sword being a sword for a scene is more beneficial than one extra use of the aspect per session, but your mileage may vary 

[benign]

@benign:  We're discussing more than just tags.  It's also worth noting enchanted items and potions often give you a free tag outside of the scene where you set them up. 

I know you are, but I was chipping in specifically to add my 2 cents about the tagging issue. Also, it is my contention that, in order to have a potion or enchanted item lay down an aspect that is taggable, that aspect must be established in the current scene. In other words, yeah you might have prepared the potion beforehand, but you have to drink it in this current scene (an action) to be able to tag the aspect that it creates. Is that clearer?

The reason I think this distinction is important is because it prevents a wizard from setting up a thaumaturgical ritual every morning that lays six aspects on himself, which he then tags the immediately when he gets in a fight later that day for ludicrous gibs.

[sinker]

@CaptFisher: The sword is always a sword. There's no reason why you couldn't get an actual sword that normally is weapon 2, and then enchant it to create an aspect (then it's a total 4 bonus).

Something else to keep in mind is that fragile aspects have no duration other than "after it has been tagged." They stick around indefinitely until they are used and then they go away. Technically one is supposed to tag an aspect quickly, but even that period of time isn't really well defined in the RAW. So fragile aspects definitely don't stick around long, but there is no point where it says they only stick around for one exchange.

[UmbraLux]

Also, it is my contention that, in order to have a potion or enchanted item lay down an aspect that is taggable, that aspect must be established in the current scene. In other words, yeah you might have prepared the potion beforehand, but you have to drink it in this current scene (an action) to be able to tag the aspect that it creates. Is that clearer?

Whether or not to somehow establish it's existence in the current scene is left up to individual groups.  I don't think it makes sense for all items but YMMV.  However, establishing an aspect does not necessarily require an action.  Declarations are the obvious example but I'd also include most items you carry.  After all, they're already there by definition. 

The reason I think this distinction is important is because it prevents a wizard from setting up a thaumaturgical ritual every morning that lays six aspects on himself, which he then tags the immediately when he gets in a fight later that day for ludicrous gibs.

I see this general idea as a valid use of a ritual.  That said, six aspects would be an expensive* ritual and probably take much longer than a morning to plan and set up.    One is far easier and two may be possible with some planning. 

*Ritual math:  Three shifts plus duration per aspect.  Aspect duration begins at 'scene' (or about fifteen minutes).  So a single day long aspect would cost 8 shifts of power.  More if you count a three shift aspect as fragile and lasting less than a scene.  Your six aspect spell would cost 48 (or more) shifts.  Not something easily done in a morning. 

[benign]

Thanks for the response.

My math works out a bit differently. According to p. 266 of YS, 5 shifts is sufficient to create an aspect that lasts all day. So if each aspect created takes 3 shifts on top of that, you could get 6 aspects for a total of 23 shifts. The character in question had a lore of 4 with a specialization stunt, giving him 6 shifts to begin with and a deficit of 17. That is considerable, but with an arcane library of significant power (he had), 3 player character spellcaster friends who can participate in the ritual, an arcane sanctum geared specifically toward rituals and built in a location that channels such magic, access to a legendary resources roll and contacts rolls, another friend whose character specifically focuses in making and selling arcane ritual components, that is 18 shifts (9 taggable aspects set up every morning by the whole party). He could do it. So the distinction becomes, for my group, important.

Other groups may have different needs, or may be fine with the wizard letting go and nuking everything like that, but my group ruled differently. I just wanted to share my experience and the ruling that made sense for my group in case others were interested.

Oh, and my group considers declarations and assessments to be actions, just free actions. So it still holds in our group that aspects are created or discovered only through actions, and only taggable if they are discovered in the current scene. Again, YMMV.

EDIT: I see where our math differs now. We only apply duration shifts once per spell, not on each part of the spell separately. Are we doing that incorrectly? I admit my mastery of the thaumaturgy rules is .  . . nonexistent .

[UmbraLux]

My math works out a bit differently. According to p. 266 of YS, 5 shifts is sufficient to create an aspect that lasts all day.

Not quite...the quote states "So a curse that acts as a maneuver to put Bad Luck on a target might start from 15 minutes...and you could make it last all day by adding five shifts..."  So it's 3 for the aspect plus 5 for duration equals 8.  Finally, each aspect lasts one scene / 15 minutes.  Each needs to have duration extended separately.

Edit:  The cost of maneuver created aspects (without duration) is earlier on YS264-5.

[benign]

Yeah, I understand that, and my example used the appropriate math. Admittedly my wording was imprecise. Where does it say you have to extend the duration of each aspect independently?

[UmbraLux]

Yeah, I understand that, and my example used the appropriate math. Admittedly my wording was imprecise. Where does it say you have to extend the duration of each aspect independently?

Honestly hadn't considered them as a single unit - each aspect is a separate attribute to me.  If you can't invoke multiple aspects with a single fate point, it doesn't make sense to extend multiple aspects with a single shift of power.  Not sure that's explicitly addressed in the text though...

[benign]

Well thanks for the feedback, and I'll stop derailing this thread now. Might start up a new one to pow-wow about the duration thing, though.

Feel like I should contribute to the actual subject of the thread before I go, so I'll throw out a possibility that may be shot down by those with more knowledge of the rules. You could model the magic sword like a potion, i.e. one use per session with an effect that lasts for about a scene. In your case you could activate the magic sword and gain access to a supernatural ability whose cost is less than your lore; inhuman speed or strength sound like good options. You could use multiple potion slots to get multiple uses per session.

I don't think there are any written example potions that work like that, so the effect certainly requires the approval of your table. Maybe other posters could give the idea a once over and determine how to make it balanced.

[Tsunami]

I don't think i would play it that way myself, the sword being a sword for a scene is more beneficial than one extra use of the aspect per session, but your mileage may vary 

The major benefit you get from adding a Maneuver-Enchantment to the sword is that fact that you get a free tag on the newly created aspect.
If you create the aspect once and then have it last for the whole scene, you only get one free tag. Any subsequent use would have to be paid for in fate points.
If you go with the fragile aspect you can create and tag it as often as you have uses on the enchantment resulting in more free tags.
The more free tags, the greater the benefit.

But like you say, mileage may vary.