Author Topic: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)  (Read 28263 times)

Offline Powderkegger

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2011, 08:07:18 PM »
She doesn't give anything for free :)

Well, exactly. This would be heavy-duty ammo for her "Harry, you owe me a Knighthood" campaign. I can't see any reason she wouldn't be up front about it.

Offline laura118b

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2011, 08:41:26 PM »
Except she couldn't hold this over him at all.  If she did it, which I've always thought so too, then the whole deed was bought and paid for by Maggie.  And Mab seems much more up front than Lea about very clearly spelling out what is and is not covered by the Godmother gig.  I don't know as I think it would even occur to her to mention it.

Offline itari

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2011, 08:47:49 PM »
Fixing LC and telling Harry who fixed LC are two different things. While the first, if Mab acted on Lea's behalf, would be a part of Maggie's original deal, the second is about information. It's all about the details.

Offline X

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2011, 10:32:21 PM »
As Laura and itari mentioned, if it was indeed Mab that fixed Little Chicago, it was not a favor that Harry asked for, and it wasn't given to Harry.  In order for the Fey to have power over a mortal, a deal must be agreed to.  Never did Harry ask Mab to fix Little Chicago or4 agree to a deal with her, as far as we know.  Hell, its completely possible that he did in fact ask Mab to fix it and then she decided to wipe his memory of it, thus why we have no knowledge of the act.

Unless that scene plays out, Harry owes Mab nothing, except thanks.
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Offline Orbweaver

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2011, 01:42:14 AM »
Lea stated in Changes that it was her role, as Harry's godmother, to protect his spiritual self. With the Sidhe, distinctions like that one are very important.

Is there any evidence to suggest that if Little Chicago had blown up, it would have affected Harry spiritually?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2011, 01:48:42 AM »
The theory holds water, but at this point why wouldn't Mab own up to it?

Because Mab never volunteers anything without a clear gain to be obtained for it.  "Why wouldn.t" never applies to Faerie, only "why would".
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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2011, 01:49:56 AM »
Is there any evidence to suggest that if Little Chicago had blown up, it would have affected Harry spiritually?

Not that I can think of.  Unless you count frustration over losing a tool he got some use out of and was on the whole very proud of.

Anyone want to tie this theory in with LC's apparent absence in TC ?
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Offline AcornArmy

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2011, 02:56:30 AM »
Is there any evidence to suggest that if Little Chicago had blown up, it would have affected Harry spiritually?

Aside from being dead, I can't think of any such effect. On the other hand, in the same book, we see that Mab has kept Slate alive and has been torturing him for years, for no apparent reason other than a decision to wait until Harry accepted the position of Winter Knight before killing the traitor. According to Fix and Lily, this was detrimental to the Winter Court, yet Mab was doing it anyway.

If Harry blew himself up with Little Chicago, all of that time would have been wasted. It's possible than Mab simply used her position as Harry's temporary godmother as an excuse to do what she wanted to do, which was preserve his life. After all, in Dead Beat, once she realized that the Darkhallow preparations had begun, she told Harry, "I must do what I might to preserve your life."

I know this runs contrary to all of the many, many times when Harry was almost killed and neither Lea nor Mab ever popped out of thin air to save him. The only guess I can make is that maybe it was a matter of simple awareness. Mab was talking to him and aware of the danger to his life in DB, so she had to act to help him. Maybe she watched him in his laboratory, and when she became aware that the flaw in Little Chicago was an imminent threat to his life, she had to act to save him. Which she already had personal reasons to do, anyway. Just a guess.
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Offline Orbweaver

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2011, 03:31:57 AM »
Not that I can think of.  Unless you count frustration over losing a tool he got some use out of and was on the whole very proud of.

I wasn't sure. Harry put a lot of his own thought, time, and "self" into building LC as he knew it to be accurate. 

Aside from being dead, I can't think of any such effect. On the other hand, in the same book, we see that Mab has kept Slate alive and has been torturing him for years, for no apparent reason other than a decision to wait until Harry accepted the position of Winter Knight before killing the traitor. According to Fix and Lily, this was detrimental to the Winter Court, yet Mab was doing it anyway.

I think that may have had more to do with the fact that the Sidhe cannot directly take a mortal life, although it may not have been a stretch to conclude that Mab could have set up circumstances in which Slate had no way to emerge alive (after all, Mab sent the hobs after Ivy). And I suspect her score sheet on the balance issue looks much, much different than Fix and Lily's does. I also suspect Slate's life, despite the physical and psychological torture he endured, was being put to another purpose (maintaining and/or fueling some of the magic at/around Arctis Tor.)

Quote
If Harry blew himself up with Little Chicago, all of that time would have been wasted. It's possible than Mab simply used her position as Harry's temporary godmother as an excuse to do what she wanted to do, which was preserve his life. After all, in Dead Beat, once she realized that the Darkhallow preparations had begun, she told Harry, "I must do what I might to preserve your life."

The Sidhe are bound by the letter of their agreements. Based on the statement Lea made to Harry, it sounds like Margaret only protected Harry's spirit- which means Mab would not have been able to use Margaret's deal to protect Harry's life, no matter how good her excuse was. Only his spirit. That doesn't necessarily mean she didn't have a different agreement elsewhere that allowed her to protect Harry's life, just that Margaret's deal was designed to protect him solely from spiritual attacks. Little Chicago does not fall into that category unless it was capable of harming him in more than a purely physical or psychological manner.

Quote
I know this runs contrary to all of the many, many times when Harry was almost killed and neither Lea nor Mab ever popped out of thin air to save him. The only guess I can make is that maybe it was a matter of simple awareness. Mab was talking to him and aware of the danger to his life in DB, so she had to act to help him. Maybe she watched him in his laboratory, and when she became aware that the flaw in Little Chicago was an imminent threat to his life, she had to act to save him. Which she already had personal reasons to do, anyway. Just a guess.


I believe Bob stated that Harry missed a power coupling near the stadium, which shifted the power flow around LC. Rather than having gone to the trouble of attempting to get through Harry's wards and into his basement without Bob or anyone else noticing, I think the culprit simply disabled and/or removed the actual coupling at the time Harry did his trial run.

After all, it's a lot easier to take out a power coupling than it is to go the other route. Harry's not the only one who gets into magical dust-ups, and if there was a magical battle going on in the area around the stadium at the time, the power coupling would have been one of the first things to go on the fritz. There are no shortage of entities in Chicago who need/desire darkness, and they don't even have to have been part of the supernatural community.  

The culprit for fixing LC might have done so inadvertently, which is a possibility Bob missed in his initial analysis of what happened. I don't think we can automatically point a finger at anybody.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 03:37:47 AM by Orbweaver »
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Offline AcornArmy

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2011, 04:01:59 AM »
I believe Bob stated that Harry missed a power coupling near the stadium, which shifted the power flow around LC. Rather than having gone to the trouble of attempting to get through Harry's wards and into his basement without Bob or anyone else noticing, I think the culprit simply disabled and/or removed the actual coupling at the time Harry did his trial run.

No, Bob didn't say that LC now matched the power flows in the real Chicago, so the problem was solved; he said that LC had a power flow set up the wrong way the last time he looked at the model, but that now, when he was looking at it, the power flow was correct. One scenario involves the real world changing but the model staying the same, while the other involves the world staying the same and model changing between one viewing and the next. If the real world had changed, Bob and Harry wouldn't have had any need to go through the part of the discussion in which they talked about how someone would've needed to get past the wards, examine Little Chicago, and realize how to fix the problem. Bob would have known the difference and we would've had an entirely different mystery to think about.

After all, it's a lot easier to take out a power coupling than it is to go the other route.

True, which is one reason that I consider the location of Lea's demesne to be a point of evidence in favor of Mab fixing the model. At any point during those nine months, Mab could have stood in Lea's garden and looked across the veil between Earth and the Nevernever, and watched Harry while he was working on it. No one else would've had that avenue of information available to them.

And I bet Mab took the opportunity to do that very thing. She has shown an unhealthy interest in Harry ever since Summer Knight. When she assumed Lea's responsibilities toward him, she was suddenly obligated to follow him around and arrange guardians for him in the Nevernever. She was already holding Slate's position open for him. I wouldn't put it past her at all to stand there in Lea's garden and watch him while he worked on Little Chicago, like some cold, creepy stalker who happened to have power on a planetary scale.

This behavior might also explain what Maeve was talking about when she said that Mab may have been contaminated with the mortal notions of good, evil, love, or something similar. From Maeve's perspective, if she didn't know about Lea's obligations or that Mab had assumed them, then it might seem as if Mab was obsessed with Harry, following him around, sometimes protecting him, and waiting for him to the detriment of the Winter Court.
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Offline jthwilliams

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2011, 04:14:49 AM »
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Offline Orbweaver

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2011, 04:44:27 AM »
No, Bob didn't say that LC now matched the power flows in the real Chicago, so the problem was solved; he said that LC had a power flow set up the wrong way the last time he looked at the model, but that now, when he was looking at it, the power flow was correct. One scenario involves the real world changing but the model staying the same, while the other involves the world staying the same and model changing between one viewing and the next. If the real world had changed, Bob and Harry wouldn't have had any need to go through the part of the discussion in which they talked about how someone would've needed to get past the wards, examine Little Chicago, and realize how to fix the problem. Bob would have known the difference and we would've had an entirely different mystery to think about.

Proven Guilty, page 471, paperback:

"I found something wrong with Little Chicago's design." I swallowed. "Oh. Wow. Bad?" "Extremely. We missed a transition coupling in the power flow. The stored energy was all going to the same spot." "That's ... like a surge of electricity going through a circuit breaker, right? Or a fuse box." "Exactly like that," Bob said. "Except that you were the fuse. That much energy in one spot will blow your head off your shoulders." "But it didn't." I said. "But it didn't," Bob agreed. "How is that possible?" "It isn't," he said. "Someone fixed it." "What? Are you sure?" "It didn't fix itself," Bob said. "When I looked at it a few nights ago, the flawed section was in plain sight, even if I didn't recognize it at the time. When I looked at it again tonight, it was different. Someone changed it." "In my lab? Under my house? Which is behind my wards? That's impossible." "No it isn't," Bob said. "Just really, really, really, really, really, really difficult. And unlikely."

The issue that I'm taking with Bob's statement is that he never stated where the transition coupling was at on LC. Kind of odd, considering that he's the one who brought up the conversation. Altering the power flow out in the real world so as not to have Dresden blow his head off his shoulders, even if it was only a momentary alteration, would have been much easier as opposed to someone going into Harry's subbasement. And Bob knows that. Bob being locked in Harry's basement doesn't exactly lend itself to his noticing a momentary flux in the power flows around the city, ya know? After all, Bob didn't notice the mishap until a few nights later- even though he saw it hiding in plain sight the first time he looked at it- so he therefore wouldn't have been looking for any shifts in the power flows around the city to begin with. (Simply put, whomever kept Dresden from going kablooey acted by momentarily taking the circumstance out of the cards, rather than risk a fix in front of Bob.)

On top of that, we have Bob stating that in all likelihood, no one did get into Harry's basement to fix the issue. It was fixed elsewhere first, and in the basement after the trial run.

I've also generally found that the either/or principle applies when we have all the information. We don't know why Bob missed the transitioner, even though he said he could see it.

As for how someone else knew LC was messed up- if they were running their own version, they probably noticed when all those small chinks and nicks appeared in the buildings, roads, etc. and took care to fix the model, lest they end up having to fix a much, much bigger problem.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 04:57:43 AM by Orbweaver »
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Offline AcornArmy

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2011, 05:03:30 AM »
On top of that, we have Bob stating that in all likelihood, no one did get into Harry's basement to fix the issue. It was fixed elsewhere first, and in the basement after the trial run.

But during the conversation you quoted, Harry didn't even know there was a problem until Bob told him so at that moment. So Harry didn't fix the model. And Bob is telling him that the model was broken a couple of days ago, but it's fixed now, during their conversation. So it still wasn't Harry who fixed it, because he didn't even know there was a problem, and Bob apparently still didn't see the fix happen.

As far as I can see, your theory doesn't eliminate the need for someone other than Harry or Bob to fix the model, it only adds the potential mystery that someone could have altered the flow in Chicago itself so that using LC wouldn't kill Harry. Which would be a novel approach-- especially since they apparently had to enter his lab anyway to fix Little Chicago, too.

Still, it would be kinda neat if that's what happened.
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Offline laura118b

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2011, 05:22:34 AM »
Lea stated in Changes that it was her role, as Harry's godmother, to protect his spiritual self. With the Sidhe, distinctions like that one are very important.

Is there any evidence to suggest that if Little Chicago had blown up, it would have affected Harry spiritually?
Yes, but Changes is the first time that is spelled out.  In SK Lea makes it pretty clear she's agreed to protect Harry's life, and then points out the old neighbor "calling the cops" and the sirens outside of Wal-Mart as two times she's done it.  In DB Mab gives Harry the info to try to save his life because Lea has to aid him.  And I think magically blowing one's head off counts as needing help from someone who can fix it. :D

Offline AcornArmy

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Re: The Answer(hopefully) to Who Fixed Little Chicago (FULL SPOILERS)
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2011, 08:13:29 AM »
Lea stated in Changes that it was her role, as Harry's godmother, to protect his spiritual self. With the Sidhe, distinctions like that one are very important.

Is there any evidence to suggest that if Little Chicago had blown up, it would have affected Harry spiritually?

Actually, something just occurred to me: Mab is the Queen of Air and Darkness, etc. etc. She's the ruler of one of the most powerful supernatural groups in existence. Is there some reason that she couldn't step over and tweak a magical construct if she felt like it? Some rule that would prevent her from doing so, if the urge took her?

I know she can't kill a mortal directly, at least one that's not connected to one of the Courts, but by fixing Little Chicago she'd be doing the opposite, so that restriction wouldn't come into play. And even if it did, until Harry performs his last favor for her, he literally belongs to her. She said as much in Small Favor, and proved it by causing him to move a few steps away without remembering it or intending to do so. Mab could harm Harry if she chose.

But that may be incidental, because I can't think of any reason Mab couldn't just cross over and mess with LC any time she felt like it, regardless of Harry's metaphysical link to her. Can anyone else think of a reason Mab couldn't mess with the model if she wanted to?
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