Author Topic: Social Combat?  (Read 3919 times)

Offline ways and means

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1783
  • What Lies in the Truth, what truth in the Lies.
    • View Profile
Social Combat?
« on: July 04, 2011, 11:11:57 PM »
A while back there was debate on whether social combat could take place during physical combat. I tried to propose ideas of when social combat would be reasonable during physical combat and had some interesting replies on the nature of social combat.

According to some peoples interpretation of social stress is entirely external too a person as it represents how other people view them.  According to these people attempts to use intimidation to scare some one would not be social combat and attempts to persuade someone to back down from a fight would not be social combat (perhaps the only uses social combat has ever been put to in my campaign).

If this is the cannon interpretation then social combat seems meaningless outside of a people in organisations or politics game and a large number of creatures should get automatic social immunity by simply having completely alien societal norms. If this it the correct interpretation of social combat it seems that for a large number of games mental combat would be far more common than social combat.  Because of those comments I am considering abandoning the social and mental stress tracks and replacing them with a composure and fatigue stress track in my game.    

Am I misinterpreting social combat or is it meant to be only used in a political game?  
Every night has its day.
Even forever must come to an end....
I think.

Offline UmbraLux

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1685
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 12:13:47 AM »
I'm not sure there is a canonical "line in the sand" between various types of combat. 

Looking at the section on Social Conflicts and reading it without using the term "social", it appears to describe interactions between individuals affecting composure, imposition of an agenda, causing fear, or even instilling a false idea.  It does state groups may be affected but that's nearly the only item which meets a standard definition of "social". 

Renaming or repurposing it to Composure sounds like a good idea to me.  Unless you're running a political game or one based on a feudal sense of 'honor' - then Social may make more sense.
--
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.”  - Albert Einstein

"Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength."  - Eric Hoffer

Offline Khalis231

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 01:17:31 AM »
My opinion is that social combat and physical combat shouldn't occur at the same time. However, the rationale behind my position differs from the rationale ways and means presents for why some prefer to separate social and physical combat.

According to some peoples interpretation of social stress is entirely external too a person as it represents how other people view them.  According to these people attempts to use intimidation to scare some one would not be social combat and attempts to persuade someone to back down from a fight would not be social combat (perhaps the only uses social combat has ever been put to in my campaign).

I don't believe that social stress is entirely external to a person, it represents not only how others view a person but how a person feels about how others view him. For example, a social consequence could be "Tarnished Reputation," which is entirely external, or it could be "Shamed," which conveys a change in the subject's thoughts or behavior based on how others view him. Sometimes social consequences are like "mental lite," damage to a character's self-esteem or ego that isn't quite potent enough to be mental stress. Social combat is a lot more nebulous than physical combat, in terms of duration, content and consequences, which is part of why I think the two should be kept separate.

Whether a situation becomes a social combat is, for me, entirely dependent on whether a physical fight is taking place. In fact, a character could perform the exact same action, such as trying to intimidate someone, and my answer would be different depending on the context. Is social interaction all that's going on? Social combat. Is it taking place in the context of a physical fight? Count it as a maneuver that can be tagged or invoked for effect.

If this is the cannon interpretation then social combat seems meaningless outside of a people in organisations or politics game and a large number of creatures should get automatic social immunity by simply having completely alien societal norms. If this it the correct interpretation of social combat it seems that for a large number of games mental combat would be far more common than social combat.  Because of those comments I am considering abandoning the social and mental stress tracks and replacing them with a composure and fatigue stress track in my game.    

Am I misinterpreting social combat or is it meant to be only used in a political game?  

To me, social combat can encompass a staggering variety of interpersonal situations. A staredown at the bar with people throwing intimidating glances at each other, an election race between two politicians, a tense business negotiation, a high-society gala with mingling and backstabbing, a frat boy sweet-talking a sorority girl. Honestly, mental combat seems like it has two purposes: as an add-on for physical combat (governed by powers which explicitly allow for its use in physical combat), and for those rare situations where things get really psychologically intense for a character. In contrast, social combat, with its own initiative system and collection of relevant skills, seems equipped to handle all of those situations where physical violence isn't happening.

It's not that I think social and physical combat can't be mixed, I just think the system is more elegant and more balanced if they aren't. Opening up the social stress track during physical combat devalues physical combat skills, and especially abilities like Toughness, if a social character can just ignore those extra stress boxes and target the vulnerable social stress track. On the flip side, keeping the social arena separate gives socially focused characters a chance to shine. Furthermore, adding in another stress track just gets plain messy and confusing. Treating Intimidation attempts (for example) as a maneuver in combat makes for a simple and elegant solution that keeps the focus on the physical combat while still allowing for the social skill to have a potentially huge effect on the combat via an invoke-for-effect.

Anyways, that's what works for my group, YMMV.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 02:49:04 AM »
Social combat could be any number of different things. There's really no need to limit yourself.

Heck, this thread could be social combat.

Offline Khalis231

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 03:55:29 AM »
Social combat could be any number of different things. There's really no need to limit yourself.

Heck, this thread could be social combat.

Ouch! I bombed my Discipline roll to defend against that fourth-wall-breaking attack. I'll take the moderate social consequence "Sanctaphrax Blew My Mind" to stay in the fight.

Khalis:
Physical OO
Mental OOO
Social XOO

Offline TheMouse

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 733
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 04:12:20 AM »
According to some peoples interpretation of social stress is entirely external too a person as it represents how other people view them.

The people who say this are confusing social combat in Dresden Files and social combat in Strands of Fate. Social combat in DFRPG is internal.

While I agree that a sort of popularity stress can be useful in certain genres (supers comes to mind), it's not really important in Dresden. Social combat is about intimidating, convincing, or otherwise altering the mind of one or more persons by means of trickery, allure, presence, or other social tactics.

As for whether it's useful in physical combat, I would tend to say that it's less probably useful to restrict it somewhat. Reasoned arguments aren't terribly useful against someone who's trying to cut your head off, not the least of which because you don't have time to say them. You might conceivably manage to fit some social attacks into physical combat time, but they should be brief.

Much of what you'd want to accomplish in a physical fight you can do with Maneuvers. Taunt them to put a "Seriously pissed off" Aspect on them, the invoke for effect to get them to overlook closer targets and run for you. Shock them so that they are "Momentarily taken aback" to get an advantage later. Etc.

Even Blocks could potentially take the place of social conflict on a physical scale fight. Intimidation can make for an effective Block against someone moving through your zone.

In short, you might be able to logically squeeze some social conflict stuff into physical conflict, but you don't have to in order to produce social effects that happen not to inflict stress.

Offline Taer

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 172
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 10:25:58 AM »
I would strongly advise making it either very hard or impossible to deal social stress in physical combat.

This is purely for game balance reasons and for general player enjoyment.

Let's say you're playing Stabby McPuncher, while another friend of yours is Pretty Shinyboy. Pretty Shinyboy dominates in social conflict - and rightly so, he heavily invested in those skills, he should be rewarded for it. However, by the same token you, Stabby McPuncher should dominate in a physical conflict.

If you can deal social stress in physical combat then social characters are nearly as effective at dealing with enemies as those who focus on physical combat. In addition to that, they completely dominate social conflicts, where physical combatants will be much weaker.

Not only that, but social skills are in general are far more widely applicable. You can get into social conflict in all kinds of situations, whereas physical conflict is rather limited - Pretty Shinyboy has a good chance of dealing with cops, mafia bosses, Faerie Queens, the Erlking, archangels and virtually every other situation where you'd be toast(or else, you'd have to deal with a lot of serious consequences) if you tried to fight someone physically.

On top of that, a social character is far more likely to be able to recruit someone to his cause and make them genuinely loyal than a physical character is. Thus, Pretty Shinyboy is already plenty capable of recruiting a Stabby McPuncher bodyguard, whereas the reverse is not far less likely to be true. Even if Stabby recruits someone to help him, it's very likely this happened as a result of physical violence. This does not a loyal employee make.

So yeah, even if it's not explicit in the rules, it's just generally a good idea not to allow for social stress in physical combat(unless backed by some sort of power). Just use maneuvers.

If you're absolutely dead-set on the ability to deal social stress in combat, at least increase the difficulty of doing so by a couple of shifts. Assuming that an average social Exchange lasts for a minute or a couple of minutes, while physical combat operates on Exchanges lasting instants or a few moments, you'd add +3-4 to difficulty of doing so via Time Increments table.
v1.2 YR:3 BK++ RP++ JB TH++ WG CL++ BC++ MC--- SH[Mab+++++ Lara++ Molly++ Murphy++]

Offline computerking

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 390
    • View Profile
    • Into the Dark
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 03:26:56 PM »
Perhaps an intermediate rule would be better, where a character cannot be taken out physically by the character inflicting Physical damage if most of the victim’s consequences are Social ones.
An example: Player A (Punchy McStabsalot) and Player B (Prettyboy Floyd) are fighting Enemy C (Phineas Mook).
First round, Prettyboy delivers a deep insult by walking over to Mook and spitting in his face, dealing 2 social stress. Punchy whips out his 2-shot Beretta and puts a round in Mook’s foot, dealing him 4 physical stress.
Next round, Prettyboy Floyd hides behind a table, starts in with a tirade of insults the likes of which are never seen outside of a Friars Club Roast, and Mook needs to take a Severe (shamed beyond belief) and Mild (Distracted) Consequence. Punchy goes next, shooting Mook in the shoulder, and Mook takes a Moderate (Ow, a Bullet Hole!) Consequence.
The final Round Prettyboy holds back mid-insult-rant and holds his action, while Punchy tags the Distracted aspect and throws his gun at Mook, Nailing him in the face for too much stress for him to handle.
The GM declares that Prettyboy can detail the Coup de Grace, which HAS to be related to the Social damage, not the Physical. So instead of dying on the spot, Phineas Mook drops his weapon and weeps like a baby, apologizing profusely.

That makes more sense to the narrative than Punchy getting to kill Mook when most of his injuries are social in nature.

Of course, this may be overly complicated...
I'm the ComputerKing, I can Do Anything...
Into the Dark, A Podcast dedicated to Villainy
www.savethevillain.com

PS: %^#@ Orbius. This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but whatever.

Offline sinker

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2115
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 06:25:53 PM »
Actually I think the different conflicts sharing consequence slots was an intentional addition by the developers. Consider torture. A lot of people have asked me "Say I'm trying to get information from someone. Obviously social combat. How then do I represent physical torture?" Of course how you do it is all about the fact that they only have so many consequences. One can make physical attacks on someone to soak up consequences so that they aren't available for social consequences.

My call on the original question is that social conflict (like thaumaturgy) seems to have a different time frame than physical conflict. Consider the assessment trapping of Rapport. It takes ten minutes. Most physical conflict is over in a quarter of that time. There just isn't time in a physical conflict to really be able to do most of the things that one would need to do a social attack. I would think maneuvers like those Mouse brought up would be perfectly functional though.

a large number of creatures should get automatic social immunity by simply having completely alien societal norms.

My two cents, this should just happen sometimes. Even if social conflict isn't external social differences can make a huge barrier to any sort of communication, let alone long reasoned discussion. Maybe not complete immunity, but definitely some sort of obstruction. Maybe zone barriers? That would be an interesting use of zones in social conflict.

Offline Vryce

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 780
  • You suck. You suck diseased moose wang, Marcone.
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 06:41:19 PM »
This is a very interesting questions.  For my self I started to think about times reading the books when someone could be doing both social and physical combat.  Here is one that I thought of.

Knights of the cross, VS nickel heads.  Why?  Because during combat the Knights of the Cross will try to get the demon/human to give up the coin on their own.  I could see this as being both.  They are both trying to damage the nickel head as well as use social damage to make the human side see the light. 

That’s my two cents, minus taxes, postage, and service chage.
Prey is Prey.  The fact it is human, in this case, does not make it any more difficult.  Intellect, Like instinct can be anticipated, manipulated…

Offline noclue

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 07:23:31 PM »
It seems like you can look to the fiction as a guide as to whether a particular social attack is appropriate given the circumstances. Social characters will not dominate physical conflicts because social attacks will be out of place in most combats. However, there will be the occasional physical combat where social attacks are just as powerful as physical ones (maybe the KoT v. Denarian situation is an example) and in that case I'd be fine with a character being taken out with any combination of physical and social consequences.

Offline Becq

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1253
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 02:48:46 AM »
My call on the original question is that social conflict (like thaumaturgy) seems to have a different time frame than physical conflict. Consider the assessment trapping of Rapport. It takes ten minutes. Most physical conflict is over in a quarter of that time. There just isn't time in a physical conflict to really be able to do most of the things that one would need to do a social attack. I would think maneuvers like those Mouse brought up would be perfectly functional though.
I think this is relative, though.  Setting a (physical) trap of some sort would fall under the general headline of 'physical attacks', but would take too long to do during a typical combat.  Reloading and firing a matchlock weapon would be another example of a physical combat action that might be too slow to perform as an action during a modern firefight, unless it took several exchanges.

Likewise many variations on Intimidation attacks need not take long at all.  If my last action was to tear the head off a thug with Supernatural Strength, then making an Intimidation attack on his thug partner ("Drop the gun or DIE!") isn't unreasonable during combat rounds.

Offline sinker

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2115
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 03:00:10 AM »
Agreed, but Intimidation is sort of unique among the social skills anyway.

Offline Becq

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1253
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 03:20:58 AM »
Agreed, but Intimidation is sort of unique among the social skills anyway.
But used that way, it's still an example (and a valid one, I think) of using a social attack during physical combat.  So I think that there isn't a hard rule ("Thou shalt not allow social conflict and physical conflict to mix"); instead I think there is a general reasonability test as to what constitutes an exchange worth of actions.

So if someone said "I leave the gunfire to my comrades and spend my exchange tying up the ten thugs who surrendered", I'd agree that that was a physical action, but argue that it is well beyond the scope of a single combat exchange.  I'd likewise argue that field-stripping a jammed weapon takes sufficiently more time than swinging a sword that it couldn't be finished in a single exchange.  But if a stunningly gorgeous female character announced that she was ripping open her bodice, and saying "Are you sure you want to impale me with that sword...?", allowing a Seduction roll seems reasonable, with potential results varying from rejection to momentary distraction to ... well, you get the idea.


Offline noclue

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Social Combat?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 04:14:41 AM »
What? Seduction during combat? When does that ever happen in the Dresden novels? ;)