Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)

[pobabylon]

The Council don't react to Red Court provocation because they basically have no need to; we see in Changes that when they finally do bestir themselves, the Red Court survive a matter of days.  The Council are in the position of a martial arts master walking down the street refusing to be provoked by the taunts of a small child into killing that small child with one blow.

reading your posts on the last page, this was the one thing that rang bells in my mind. have i missed something? if the WC could have so easily handled the RC, why wouldn't they have earlier during their war? iirc, the WC was reported as being on the losing side of the war several times. the results of Chances wasn't the WC killing a small child in my eyes, it was Martin's manipulation to get harry an extremely low blow that would hit the entire RC, the WC wasn't even a presence at the final conflict (sure a few of it's members where, but they were all Grey Council)

[biggs]

It was Arthur Langtry, remember? His policy was to stop the RC with wards, which his were very powerful. If you remember the various battle references, when the WC takes an offensive campaign, the RC get their balls caved in (paraphrasing Harry) by the WC. The reason they kept losing was because the Merlin was a pompous coward, politically speaking. Or something else entirely...

[logistics]

reading your posts on the last page, this was the one thing that rang bells in my mind. have i missed something? if the WC could have so easily handled the RC, why wouldn't they have earlier during their war? iirc, the WC was reported as being on the losing side of the war several times. the results of Chances wasn't the WC killing a small child in my eyes, it was Martin's manipulation to get harry an extremely low blow that would hit the entire RC, the WC wasn't even a presence at the final conflict (sure a few of it's members where, but they were all Grey Council)

I have to second this. If the White Council version of a nuke strike was able to be pulled off easily, surely the strategic situation in Dead Beat would have merited such a response - Peabody's manipulations could only go so far. Incidentally, the strike called up in Changes never materialized due to the Reds interference. Dresden managed to turn their own weapon upon them, but it still doesn't signify the White Council having the practical ability to do such a strike, even if they have the skill to do so. They tried and got slapped down before it ever occurred.

[biggs]

Maybe Arthur is lying about his age, and is much more prone to influence than we thought...

[kazimmoinuddin]

to a mortal it give a pseudo sight ability, what would it do to practioners, could they become addicts, easier to manipulate, mentally, corrupt them so become warlocks. possible power boost or ability.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I have to second this. If the White Council version of a nuke strike was able to be pulled off easily, surely the strategic situation in Dead Beat would have merited such a response - Peabody's manipulations could only go so far.

They don't need to.  The strike in DB takes place by the Reds trespassing on Faerie.  Faerie will handle that, and do in PG - hard enough that whatever advantage the Reds (who lost all their war-later faction at the end of DM, and appear now to be entirely run by hardline hawks) had at the end of DB, PG reduces it to the point where the hard-line hawks come looking for a ceasefire.

Incidentally, the strike called up in Changes never materialized due to the Reds interference. Dresden managed to turn their own weapon upon them, but it still doesn't signify the White Council having the practical ability to do such a strike, even if they have the skill to do so. They tried and got slapped down before it ever occurred.

I disagree entirely.

The Council totally took out the Reds in Changes.  They did it by a combination of sending in a bunch of their best people dressed in grey, and denying Harry overt help so that he would turn to Mab for power, which she wants to give him and not any of the rest of them.  I don't for an instant believe that either Chandler's letter or Eb's report of illness among the Council are proven true; they work for me as motivations for Harry.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

It was Arthur Langtry, remember? His policy was to stop the RC with wards, which his were very powerful. If you remember the various battle references, when the WC takes an offensive campaign, the RC get their balls caved in (paraphrasing Harry) by the WC. The reason they kept losing was because the Merlin was a pompous coward, politically speaking.

For values of "pompous coward" equal to "not actually wanting to commit genocide".

He doesn't even have to have humanitarian* reasons for doing so.  It seems entirely possible to me that we will discover in the next couple of books that the consequences of the annihilation of the Red Court are much much worse than the consequences of their existence.

[kazimmoinuddin]

the thing is humans may be cattle, for them to survive, alot of us needed to live, any one wanting to wipe out humanuty, will have an easier time.

[pobabylon]

The Council totally took out the Reds in Changes.  They did it by a combination of sending in a bunch of their best people dressed in grey, and denying Harry overt help so that he would turn to Mab for power, which she wants to give him and not any of the rest of them.  I don't for an instant believe that either Chandler's letter or Eb's report of illness among the Council are proven true; they work for me as motivations for Harry.

that's .. interesting, I don't think the WC to be incompetent, but i wouldn't have thought to give them that much credit. How many people could really have known that Mab was on such good terms with harry, and had been pushing for him to become her Knight? I think there are still too many doubters in Harry on the council for that idea to have made it past "Those powers will finally turn him evil. not going to put our hopes of the RC's destruction in those hands"

you think the grey council is just a puppet organization for the WC do get things done? (sorta like.. abunch of blackstaffs?) I thought that alot of the Grey council members weren't even on the WC..


and biggs, you have a good point, i forgot that was the merlin's strong suit. but still, I think if the council could have so easily annihilated the entire red court so completely as at the end of changes, at literally any time they had wanted, they wouldn't have weathered an entire war with the RC before leaving if up to Harry to stumble his way into doing the task. Whether the WC was going to win the war or not, no one can say there weren't heavy losses among the wizards, and those losses would have continued to pile up.


Any way it's looked at, I'm excited to see the waves caused from the sudden absence of the entire RC, that certainly is a worldwide Change.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

that's .. interesting, I don't think the WC to be incompetent, but i wouldn't have thought to give them that much credit. How many people could really have known that Mab was on such good terms with harry, and had been pushing for him to become her Knight?

Plausibly ? Ancient Mai, who seems to handle supernatural diplomacy for the Council generally, and who had an envoy visiting Mab in SK. Rashid with his spooky foreknowledge. Any other wizard with a working knowledge of Faerie.

I think there are still too many doubters in Harry on the council for that idea to have made it past "Those powers will finally turn him evil. not going to put our hopes of the RC's destruction in those hands"

I was not proposing they had much invested in Harry surviving the operation.  Besides, I think Harry under Mab's control might well strike some of those people as a less dangerous wild card than Harry as he was pre-Changes.

you think the grey council is just a puppet organization for the WC do get things done?

Yep.

Pretty much the first thing we're told about Arthur Langtry is that he plots on multiple levels.  The official denial that there is a Black Council and the existence of the Grey Council read to me as two halves of the same plan.

(sorta like.. abunch of blackstaffs?)

I'm not proposing that any of them other than Eb have sanction to ignore the Laws.  Just that they are set up to carry out the operation without it being visibly a White Council operation.

I thought that a lot of the Grey council members weren't even on the WC..

Only direct evidence we have for that is Odin showing up with them at the end, and I am not at all sure that just because he shows up to help he could be counted on as a member.

but still, I think if the council could have so easily annihilated the entire red court so completely as at the end of changes, at literally any time they had wanted, they wouldn't have weathered an entire war with the RC before leaving if up to Harry to stumble his way into doing the task.

He doesn't stumble.  He's steered every step of the way.  There are very few chapters in Changes where Harry is not being managed by some combination of a) the Merlin b) Eb c) Mab or Lea d) Uriel/the White God e) Odin.  It's not a complicated set of chances left to run, it's an operation micromanaged every step of the way.

[pobabylon]

Besides, I think Harry under Mab's control might well strike some of those people as a less dangerous wild card than Harry as he was pre-Changes.

[/quote


woah, never thought of it that way, the WK mantle being a lash for keeping harry tame...

[Lord Rae]

I'm not sure anyone who met Slate would consider being the winter knight as being "leashed". Rather if he's the winter knight he's "no longer our responsibility" would be the reasoning. But I'm not sure I buy it. If I did that would be the outcome they were going for.

[Talion]

For values of "pompous coward" equal to "not actually wanting to commit genocide".

He doesn't even have to have humanitarian* reasons for doing so.  It seems entirely possible to me that we will discover in the next couple of books that the consequences of the annihilation of the Red Court are much much worse than the consequences of their existence.

Well, thats pretty much a given since it was due to Harry ;-)

[Roverbey]

He doesn't stumble.  He's steered every step of the way.  There are very few chapters in Changes where Harry is not being managed by some combination of a) the Merlin b) Eb c) Mab or Lea d) Uriel/the White God e) Odin.  It's not a complicated set of chances left to run, it's an operation micromanaged every step of the way.

Well nuerovore, while I agree we can't discount your theory of a group of Illuminati level conspirators controlling things from behind the scenes, neither is there much direct evidence to support it. Many events can be explained/justified if your theory is true, but by assuming the level of near omniscience and competence you give this proposed group you could easily link truly random and unrelated events (say me not having my morning tea causing a collapse of tea futures).  My main objection to this is largely personal in that such a conspiracy would be beyond complex with the potential for catastrophic failure if there is the equivalent of a rounding error in the plan. Depending upon the successful completion of, say, 200 events needing to happen in sequence just seems a needless complication. If such a conspiracy does exist in the Dresdenverse, I firmly expect Jim will show it toppling under its own weight simply because his universe seems to place a great store in free will and by its very nature such manipulation would be anti free will.

[ebliss1]

He doesn't stumble.  He's steered every step of the way.  There are very few chapters in Changes where Harry is not being managed by some combination of a) the Merlin b) Eb c) Mab or Lea d) Uriel/the White God e) Odin.  It's not a complicated set of chances left to run, it's an operation micromanaged every step of the way.

Gotta WAY DISAGREE on this one. If this was so carefully micromanaged as you state, then there is no way that Harry could have made the whole thing a TON worse - and he easily could have. The hijacked bloodline curse worked as it did because he goaded Susan into turning into the absolutely newest Red Court vampire in the world and then he used her to trigger the curse. If she had died before getting to that point (an easy-to-imagine scenario given the odds we saw stacked against out intrepid little band), the curse doesn't wipe out the entire Red Court, just some of it. Also, if Harry had just managed to take out the Red King, by his own words, that would have made the war against the White Council a lot harder since the Red King's instability and lack of coherent leadership were crippling the Red Court in the war. A Red Court with a sane and focused leader would have been brutal on the White Council. Also, had Harry's bloodline curse been used on, say, one of the Lords of Outer Night instead of a fledgling Susan, then all he would have done would have been to wipe out the leadership cadre (since the curse does not go down the family tree, only up), and thus leave thousands of Red Court vampires all over the world without restrictions. The could feed on and turn humans at will and we could have seen a population explosion among the Red Court.

There were way to many variables with too many available paths to being seriously up the creek for the CI scenario to have been micromanaged. MAYBE if we had seen Lea whisper to Harry that turning Susan and sacrificing her was tha answer I could by into your theory, but Harry came up with it all on his own that we could see. An no one, anywhere, wants to leave any plan up to Harry's bolshevik muppet thinking bringing him to the right conclusion.