Author Topic: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)  (Read 31648 times)

Offline MegaPuff75

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2011, 06:18:16 AM »
I think it is quite likely Victor developed 3 eye himself, Harry says the curse was impossible once he realizes 3 eye is a potion he understands Victor is just running at a bigger scale using the power from the orgies. Monica says that Victor had been angry and that he gave her a sample of the 3 eye so she would understand him,which is probably why he created and he realized later that he could sell it as a drug. I'm also pretty sure that Victor was set up with the Beckitts by someone who wanted him to eliminate Marcone so that Bianca could take over more of the Chicago underworld. Had they succeeded Bianca's court would have a stranglehold on Chicago by the time she was elevated to the rank of Duchess in GP giving the RC a foothold to take control of most of the U.S. before starting their war with the WC.
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Offline biggs

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2011, 04:40:39 AM »
If you're going to assume the larger conspiracy, ask yourself who benefits from getting rid of the red court. Seems to me that people DIDN'T want Harry dead until the reds were killed off. Otherwise, the last two pages of changes would have happened at the end of book (insert number here). Nicodemus proved that he isn't above using firearms, and wouldn't have had any trouble rolling over Dresden even if he didn't. Same for cowl and his groupies. If you really think about it, nobody (groupwise) has tried very hard to kill dresden until changes

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2011, 04:59:29 AM »
You're assuming that Harry turning the curse against the RC was all part of the plan of the BC, but that doesn't really make sense if Arriana is BC the entire plan is suicide, if however Arriana assumes that the RK will side with her against Harry then the BC may have intended to weaken the WC by killing Eb and then finishing them off with another major offensive led by one of the Lords of Outer Night replacing the RK, but Harry does his thing and the whole plan falls to pieces so when he gets back to Chicago they have him whacked.
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Offline biggs

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2011, 05:05:04 AM »
With the red court gone there is a huge power vacuum in about 15% of the planets surface. All I'm saying is that people just didn't seem to be trying very hard to kill him, and he's been used as a cats paw before

Offline Zolt

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2011, 10:56:35 AM »
I think it is worth considering (as has been proposed before), that whoever put Victor on the path of black magic, passed out the wolf belts, etc., is a person or group of persons trying to engineer situations which would put Harry into a position to leave the White Council (or get kicked out).  This also goes for manipulation of the Red Court.  The entire war starting incident at Bianca's can be read as a situation manipulated to force Harry into actions which would get him kicked out of / severed from the White Council.

IMO, most of the antagonists Harry has faced to directly to this point (to include the Red Court in Changes) are more than likely sock puppets for a background player who would like to see Harry unaffiliated or outright hostile to the White Council, and ready for recruitment to their cause.
We shouldn't work on the basis that all of Creation revolves around Harry. Even though it does (this is the Dresdenverse, after all).

Also, the bloodline curse in Changes and the heart exploder in SF killed in similar ways, but the ritual in SF was NOT a bloodline curse, it used a thaumaturgic link powered by ritual sex.  I don't think it needs to be the same person teaching sells and the Red Court.  If two coaches who have never met each other both grew up knowing the rules of football and watching the same games, it is not unlikely they will both draw up similar plays.  So I don't know if the connection is necessarily there, other than Arianna getting nudged into action that involved Harry.

It was the exact same curse, Vadderung himself says so. That noob Sells simply didn't have enough ooomph to make it spread to the family. He used sex rituals and a thunderstorm just to boost his power level. Harry could probably have achieved the same thing with a chalk circle, five minutes of preparation, and a spongebob action figure instead of a live rabbit.

The question is how Sells got his hands of those in the first place. The recipe for Three-eye, the name of a fairly bad-ass demon, his extremely nasty scorpions, and an ancient Maya death curse. It's unlikely that he just bought those from Amazon for his Kindle (although he might have had better luck with ebay).

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Offline Arjan

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2011, 12:01:27 PM »
We shouldn't work on the basis that all of Creation revolves around Harry. Even though it does (this is the Dresdenverse, after all).
All creation does revolve around Harry. But at that point in time most players did not now yet so it could not influence their decisions.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2011, 12:45:04 PM »
yeah, one running speculation is that
*Person who gave Victor the Three Eye recipe to attack Marcone
*Person who gave hexenwulf belts to the FBI to attack Marcone
*Person who got Denarians to attack Marcone
are the same person. It makes me wonder if Marcone is even more important in the BAT than Harry is. 

I can but Nicodemus being 1 and 2, there, and there not being any need for someone to get the Denarians to attack Marcone.  Marcone has a pretty major mundane power base, which might be reason enough even given what we know in SF; I would like to at some point find out with a bit more clarity precisely when Marcone became aware of the supernatural world, and whether he was doing anything relevant to it before Gard showed up in DM.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2011, 12:46:55 PM »
I don't see why it couldn't be Victor's own creation.  We have only seen Harry make potions and he seems pretty terrible at it since Bob needs to constantly hold his hand.

Yep, and Sells knows a lot less about what he is doing than Harry even in SF.  I don't believe that Sells on his own managed to invent a potion to do something the Council believed was flat-out impossible, and doubly not when we have confirmation in Changes that he was definitely a guinea-pig for the curse.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2011, 12:47:57 PM »
So basically, the whole series and everything that harry has gone up against so far, has been to try to get Harry to leave the White Council, and join "someone".  I would say that sounds like overkill just to get Harry. 

Not if he's the only Outsiderbane anyone knows about, and may well be the last hope of the whole planet when the coming Outsider apocalypse arrives.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2011, 12:56:12 PM »
All creation does revolve around Harry. But at that point in time most players did not now yet so it could not influence their decisions.

This is one of those assumptions a lot of people make that I just do not get.

We can, I think, safely deduce from Maggie's message to Harry in BR that Maggie knew Harry would be an Outsiderbane.  She apologises for laying such a difficult burden on him.

I think any player who was a known associate of Maggie's can have know how important Harry was since before he was born.

We have textual evidence that this definitely includes Justin, Lord Raith, and Lea.  Lea knowing it means Mab knows it and seems to me to be Winter's motive for Lea making the deal with Harry when he was sixteen in the first place.  We have Nicodemus in DM talking as if he knew Maggie; I think he's lying through his teeth but if he's not, then he can plausibly know how important Harry is from the get-go. We have plausible options for Cowl being connected to Maggie's former cabal, so he could well know how important Harry is.

We also have players in action who have intellectus or something akin to it and who can thereby Just Know Harry is important without an evidence trail of this sort.  I count the Faerie Queens, Uriel, and Odin at this level.  

The combination of all these, and people working for them or being played by them, adds up to pretty much everyone can have known that Harry was important.  I've argued before for not only everything in the books but everything of importance in Harry's entire life being the product of a bunch of competing agendas for people trying to win him over to their sides.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 01:00:03 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2011, 12:57:24 PM »
So basically, the whole series and everything that harry has gone up against so far, has been to try to get Harry to leave the White Council, and join "someone".  I would say that sounds like overkill just to get Harry.  I also think that it was overkill to set up the outrageously powerful Bloodline spell just to take out EB, but that's me.
Mab does not know the word overkill when she tries to recruit Harry  ;D
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Offline ebliss1

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2011, 01:39:11 PM »
Here's another thought. I'm going in the opposite direction of the "lets make a lot of warlocks to spread the White Council too thin" theory). We know that the White Court came up with a plan to rid the world of wizards by getting rid of females who had some talent. The reduction of the available breeding-stock and the long time required to get a wizard from "lucky embryo who has the spark of magic" to "Dresden-Level Battleship on Legs" is exceedingly long. Wizards are very vulnerable to supernatural baddies for most of that time, and for many, longer than Dresden took. Perhaps, this was a White Council, or someone from the White Council working on his own, plan to instill the magical spark a little more widely throughout the population.

Sure, it affects a lot of people badly, and we never saw any evidence that it imparted magical ability to any of its addicts, but what if, for example, a woman was on it while pregnant, the baby would have been exposed to magic from the get-go. In real life, we have heroin and crack babies, in the Dresdenverse, perhaps this was a plan to boost the wizarding population by creating 3Eye babies who, by being essentially bathed in magic from conception, would be much more likely to develop into full-blown wizards at puberty.

Victor could have been the tool to create and distribute the drug in Chicago as an initial test, with national and evetually world-wide distribution following.

If successful, then in 12 years or so, the world would have seen an initial spike in emerging wizards, with more appearing each year. At around 20 years, the White Council would have started swelling appreciably. Also, by that time, with a couple decades worth of addicts getting pregnant and having magic-infused babies, the wizarding community would be exploding in size. It could be like when homosapiens started to get born more and more and the cro-magnon was well on his way to extinction.

At the time, Harry was a non-entity in the wizarding world. But, he was perfectly positioned to take the fall should a Warden catch on that 3Eye was magic-related. Harry was already considered to be a warlock who got lucky at his trial, and the local Warden on the lookout for magical badness, Morgan, was not looking out for magical badness, but was rather looking at Harry waiting for magical baddness to show up. If Victor's sponsor had started 3Eye in, say, Seattle, where there was no Warden presence, once there was a hint of magical badness happening, the Wardens would have descended in force and started looking for the problem. In Chicago, Morgan's presence would have meant that the Wardens would not need to descend and start looking around: if any showed up to help Morgan, they all would have been looking at Harry. This would be, essentially, an early warning system for Victor's sponsor so that when Harry showed up decapitated, or brought before the council to explain, he would know to tell Victor to skip town.

Harry's power rise, successful evasion of Morgan, killing of Victor, imprisonment of the Beckitts, and destruction of the 3Eye messed everything up and probably kick-started Victor's sponsor to change tactics and form the Black Council.

I dunno - its just my theory. Take it for what its worth (and bear in mind I've had quite a few head injuries - I was a clumsy child).

Oh, BTW, someone quoted Vadderung in Changes saying that "no one has used power on that scale in more than a millenia" when referring to the bloodline curse. If thats true, what historical event if Jim pointing at? Could it be the Bubonic plague that reduced the human population by between 25% and 50% from 550 to 700 AD? Could it have been a variant of the spell that was responsible for the first-born male of every family in Egypt being killed on the same night before pharoah freed the slaves that we know of from the Bible? Could it be something else? Just a thought.
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Offline LexVIII

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2011, 03:04:10 PM »
How About this....

I have personally engaged in the debate of the Black Council. Who are they? Who is in Who is out, Etc. I realized that most of the answers could be gleaned rather than speculation of who is on the Black Council by analyzing what their operations and Goals have been as well as their successes. I would like to begin with a brief overview of what we do know about them. It also became too big to put in one brief so heres the first part. I hope that everyone is interested and can catch some of the things I miss...

 

Black Council Overview:

 

What is known about the Black Council, Circle, etc. is that its organization must be one that relatively new considering that most lifetimes in the Dresdenverse are measured in the span of centuries. Some of its high level members may have been around for some time as may be the motivation for such a group (a la Maggie Le Fay) but as an organization no group could exist as a cohesive unit for long enough to develop operations such as we have seen without gaining some attention quickly (remember among some of its enemies is a little girl that knows anything that is written and a group of people capable of tracking someone from a hair sample) and the group is obviously not strong enough to survive in a direct war with the White Council, the Vampire Courts, The Fae Courts, The Knights of the Sword, The Denarians, et al or it would have made itself known already.

 

I would have to think that its organization is loose in hierarchy with a relatively tight command structure; I would imagine like a Magical version of Al'Qaeda; the small leadership calls the shots with facilitators being the go-betweens to the grunts but there is little interaction between middle managers and none between the foot soldiers.

 

The Black Councils goals would have to be to place its members at the top of the magical hierarchy specifically of magically endowed human beings while at the same time organizing the weakening of the other supernatural powers to facilitate a smooth transition during the takeover. Recruitment is ironically probably the easiest thing for the Black Council as it would probably look for operatives from the ranks of the disenfranchised wizard community (as pointed out in Turncoat) and those minor wizards that are effectively ignored by the White Council until they mess up. Maintaining security with these groups is relatively easy. Up until Harry Dresden and Elaine Mallory established the Ordo/Paranet no one seemed to really be interested in lower powered wizards, if one or two mess up and spill the beans the damage can be contained as they don’t have the access to the supernatural community that a full blown wizard does. Second they all have something to lose if they do come forward in that they probably broke the rules and unlike Dresden are not in the position to protect themselves.

 

Black Council Operations and their Successes and Failures:

 

Storm Front:

 

It is clear that while Victor Sells is not in the same league power wise as Dresden, He is clearly well trained and has some resources that would surprise some wizards, including the true name of a minor demon, summoning talismans, and the know how to produce something that was never thought possible. He is below the radar in regards to the supernatural community exactly the way the Black Council likes them. He is also doing something that really has never been tried before, utilizing modern techniques to create magical effects.

 

Suspected Operational Goals:

 

Produce Third-Eye as a means of increasing the number of people aware of the supernatural (the more people aware of that which lurks in the dark the more people will look for solutions which would not be forthcoming from the removed White Council). Utilizing Chicago’s drug population as a testbed to see if the drug would work and if the White Council is as asleep as it seems or is it a ruse to lure rebels into the open where the Wardens can pounce.

 

Develop controllable underworld contacts in a critical transportation hub (Chicago) by muscling out the current Kingpin that is an obstacle for three reasons: 1) Marcone’s interests are in crime alone, he has no further ambition in terms of power, political or otherwise. 2) Marcone works only for himself; making him uncontrollable by the Black Council 3) Marcone wants to reduce the number of killings within Chicago with includes supernatural killings and has the means to do so through his contacts, wit, and ruthlessness. Black Council operations in any form would likely increase deaths among innocents prompting Marcone to act. Limiting him would be helpful in the future.

 

Finally, if discovered by the White Council see if more focus can be placed upon Wizard Dresden in order to recruit him into the organization. He was under the Doom of Damocles and if under suspicion may run right into the Black Councils arms for safety. If he will not join up then he can be killed by some of the highly powered operatives in the Council and his body hidden. The Black Council could then blame Dresden for any wrongdoing for the next couple of years. In effect the Wardens would be chasing shadows for years.

 

Analysis of What Went Wrong?

 

Victor Sells became far to corrupted by Black Magic far too quickly, his failure to take into account his wife’s background leads Monica Sells ends up alerting Wizard Dresden to the activities of Sells and company precisely at the same time that operations against Marcone begin. It is at this point that operations could not be stopped due to the need/desires of several of Sells associates and the fact that if stopped Marcone would surely find the culprit sooner or later.

 

Monica Sells provided information that allowed Dresden to work a case from two different ends utilizing Chicago’s Special Investigations Department (whose competence is an exception rather than a rule) to fill in the gaps as to the activities of Sells and company.

 

Dresden was discovered to be far more resilient than suspected. Rather than running from White Council justice Dresden stayed to uncover the Sells operation killing Sells, capturing his associates, and destroying the production center for Third Eye. Worse, he clears himself of any wrongdoing and of the Doom meaning it will be more difficult to place blame on him in future events.

 

Operational Cost/Benefit Analysis:

 

Clearly the entire operation was ruined and almost a complete loss. None of the objectives were achieved. Due to the interference of Dresden; Third Eye could not be either reproduced or it was deemed a security risk as its production after Dresden proved he was innocent would have let on that Sells had compatriots.

 

Marcone survived and was able to consolidate power in Chicago with greater understanding of the supernatural.

 

Finally, Dresden was proven innocent and further ensconced in the White Council camp rather than an isolated enemy or pawn.

 

On the positive side; operational security was maintained as no one has any evidence that tied Sells to any larger conspiracy. Dresden’s actions with Bianca St. Claire give the Black Council the opportunity to influence the Red Court using her as a proxy. The White Council is proven to be completely blind to the goings on within its own community except when the most gross of actions are taken and even then they turn on their own before looking to other culprits.

 

Fool Moon

 

The activities of Black Council during the events of Fool Moon seem to be more of the same and in many respects on the surface the operation seem the same: Use allies to build influence in Chicago at the expense of the White Council and Marcone. Give agents of the Black Council resources like the Hexenwolfen belts and information (like the existence of MacFinn) in order to carry out what seem to be mutually beneficial goals. However the difference is the ambition and scope of the operation; The Black Council is attempting to gain operatives in the 600lb. gorilla that is vanilla mortal institutions.

 

Suspected Operational Goals:

 

Gain allies and operatives within the federal government utilizing supernatural favors to influence members. The Black Council having members of mortal institutions under their control could not be overestimated; it would be like possessing the keys to a nuclear arsenal in regards to the supernatural community. In terms of power of numbers one other group could overall hamper the entire supernatural community like mortals if scared and directed properly The Black Council hidden from even the supernatural community could pick up the pieces afterwards. If it comes down to a shooting war with the White Council; every Senior Council member or supporter being on an Interpol wanted list would clearly be problem especially since mortal wizards could doubtfully stave off an entire SWAT team. Giving agents Denton, Benn, Harris and Wilson the wolfpelts is probably only the tip of this operation, however it is also a sign of good faith in order to exert more control over other agents in the future.

 

Eliminating Marcone is also a priority in that it opens Chicago for the Black Council Agent Bianca St. Claire and it stops Marcone who is now recruiting supernatural thugs (the Streetwolves) into his organization.

 

Analysis of What Went Wrong?

 

The first thing that went wrong is the short term nature of the operatives that were provided to the Black Council; Agents Denton, Harris, Benn, and Wilson were probably looked upon by higher-up members of the FBI as collateral damage just as the agents looked upon their innocent victims in the same way. The agents failed to kill Marcone in their first attempts. Marcone is far harder to kill due to skill, ruthlessness and luck, the only thing that is positive is that Marcone immediately suspects MacFinn and the Alphas rather than looking deeper.

 

Evidently the Hexenwolfen sociopathic effects are also accelerated by the panic of discovery by Dresden who informs Special Investigations exactly what to look for. It is unknown if the relationship between the mortal authorities and Black Council remained intact however it is doubtful due to the public nature of Denton’s teams corruption and the survival of Marcone.

 

Operational Cost/Benefit Analysis:

 

The loss of the FBI team under the Black Council is damaging particularly due to its publicity. Most mortal authorities after such a public defeat would retreat from anyone associated with it.

 

However there are several positives, one is that again there are no direct ties to the Black Council, second Marcone loses his supernatural enforcers meaning that he would have to start from scratch. Third, Special Investigations loses several good men hampering that organizations potential threat in the near future. Finally, and not to be underscored is the loss of a minor practitioner and the damage to Dresden’s credibility with other practitioners. I am sure it underscores the Black Council dogma (subtly through back channels) that the White Council can not or is unwilling to help those outside its direct membership. Dresden’s failure to help can surely be spun in the Black Councils favor.

 

Grave Peril

 

Grave Peril is the coming out party for the Black Council in many ways. It is the ramp up to all the future operations that the Black Council has in play against all of the major players. The war is clearly orchestrated to the maximum benefit of the Black Council to the detriment of the Red Court, White Council and the allies of both.

 

Suspected Operational Goals:

 

Starting a large scale conflict between The Red Court of Vampires and the White Council is clearly the most important goal of the events. The Black Council has had prior dealings with Harry Dresden; they know what makes him tick and specifically manufacture an event that will cause him to react. Bianca St. Claire is clearly misled on how Dresden will react to the situation. A child is threatened, a woman is threatened, his friends are threatened, and finally his beloved is threatened. He is forced to be there by his duty to the White Council, the Red Court is already looking for war. These are all specifically tailored to make him react violently and (in the opinion of the White and Black Councils) excessively. Dresden is merely a large spark for a large powder keg. If Dresden surprises everyone by allowing these actions to take place then it only underscores the weakness of the White Council to a predatory species that would merely find some other pretext to act on that weakness.

 

Dresden being killed in the meantime is all the better as he has interfered in several operations killing in chronological order agents Kravos, FBI Hexenwolfen, and Sells disrupting each of their operations. If he survives then it is of no matter as he is isolated further from the White Council.

 

The second goal is probably to eliminate one of the Knights of the Cross by means of destroying the sword in order to solidify the help of several Denarians that would be used as heavy hitters in later conflicts.

 

The third is begin to sow the seeds of conflict against the other major powers specifically the Winter and Summer Courts of the Fae, The Denarians, and the White Court of Vampires. Introduce destabilizing elements into their stable systems and let them run. Leanansidhe is given a powerful object potentially as a deal to recruit her or to use her as a Cats’ paw against Mab.

 

Finally utilize a killed operative to stir up local the ghost population increasing fear among those that can not protect themselves.

 

Analysis of What Went Wrong?

 

Not much Dresden reacted exactly planned; war between the two major groups is accomplished. The loss of Bianca St. Claire while unfortunate is not critical. The failure to eliminate one of the swords (and thus its knight) is not overly necessary however helpful it would be.

 

Operational Cost/Benefit Analysis:

 

The Operation as stated was a success. The war between the White Council and The Red Court of Vampires will rage for years with the Black Council aiding both sides to prolong the conflict. The White Council will be stretched to its breaking point underscoring its weakness and allowing more open recruitment to the Black Council ranks. The Red Court will be weakened in the war as well. Warden Morgan almost kills the Red King in open combat several of their major court members are killed in conflicts and they would not have needed to accept the peace offer eventually proposed unless their losses were substantial as well.

 

The Red Court’s first strike against Senior Council Member Simon Petrovich and Archangel is clearly done with advanced intelligence from Black Council agents. It also probably has It is also certain the that Black Council agents (hidden of course) are aiding the White Council to maintain the conflict equilibrium probably through agents in the Order of St Giles and Venatori Umbrorum

 

The Attack on Archangel is a message from the Red Court to the White Council that the war is so serious that the Red Court kills the White Council member that they trust the most first. It also has a practical reason for The Black Council, Petrovich had the most access to the Red Court if something was awry Petrovich was in the position to perhaps backtrack the activities of Black Council members leading them to discovery.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2011, 03:19:04 PM »
If successful, then in 12 years or so, the world would have seen an initial spike in emerging wizards, with more appearing each year. At around 20 years, the White Council would have started swelling appreciably. Also, by that time, with a couple decades worth of addicts getting pregnant and having magic-infused babies, the wizarding community would be exploding in size. It could be like when homosapiens started to get born more and more and the cro-magnon was well on his way to extinction.

One hole in your theory is this ... The WC has to identify folks with magical ability.  They've been spread thin and have been missing folks, thus the rise in Warlocks.

To piggy-back on your idea, I wonder if the 3eye was supposed to do the opposite of what you propose.  Not increase the number of Wizards, but of Warlocks and drown the WC.

Just my thought.
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Offline ebliss1

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2011, 05:30:06 PM »
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One hole in your theory is this ... The WC has to identify folks with magical ability.  They've been spread thin and have been missing folks, thus the rise in Warlocks.

But remember, in Storm Front, the Wardens and the White Council were not spread thin. They were at peace with the Red Court, they had not started taking any losses and Morgan could afford to spend plenty of time just lurking around Dresden waiting for him to screw up. I would assume that (assuming my idea was the correct one) someone planning for that far in advance would have some sort of plan to make sure that the White Council was extra-alert in about 12 years and had been keeping an eye on children born of addicts. Its also possible that the 3Eye drug somehow marked its users in some way that Dresden just hadn't found - or possibly children born with it in their systems were traceable.

Again, a lot of speculation, but I don't think your hole in my theory was a hole at the time. A challenge to be addressed, yes, but not a hole.
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