When the players know too much

[Taran]

I just started running a submerged game and it's chalk-full of mystery.  Or, I guess, it's supposed to be.  The resident wizard has a Lore of 6.  I'd kind of imagined a mini adventure happening where they are trying to find out a creatures catch.  I find it hard to not give the players information when they are rolling Legendary +++ rolls.  With rolls like that, there's really no need to do research.  How do other people deal with submerged games and controlling information?

On a side-note, it's not that I don't want to give the players the information - I do - in fact, I find it makes the story better when the players can actually find out what's going on.  It's more that I want small side-stories and stuff to come out of finding said information.

[devonapple]

Make the Lore rolls necessary to get *leads* to answers, as opposed to the answers themselves. The player with Lore 6 *knows* that the Scroll of Anuba contains the information needed to make a Rezeluan Mindspider appear in the flesh so it can be confronted. And the last time he knew its whereabouts, it was in the hands of Disraeli Campos, a Wizard-turned-Warlock who went into hiding after stealing this Scroll from Edinburgh. Maybe it's time to collect on that bounty, remove an enemy of the White Council, and make progress in removing the curse on the party's White Court Virgin.

Edit: Recalling "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," the Grail Diary contained all the information needed to retrieve the Holy Grail because even the premier Grail researcher in the world couldn't memorize everything about it. And so many adventures centered around that book rotating through various factions' possession.

[Haru]

If you can't make a side plot of finding out the catch, make a side plot of catching the catch... so to speak.

Ah, too slow 
Devonapples idea is another way to go. If the information just isn't available, even the best lore roll isn't going to be doing any good. To make the roll not entirely useless, maybe you can go with the spin rule (or am I thinking of another?) and give him an aspect that reflects the information he has, so he is able to tag it later on.

Another way could be to look at the wizards aspects, what kind of a wizard is he. If he does not have much experience with creatures, you could wave a shiny fate point at him compelling this fact. His lore is high, but he does not know everything, and it just happens to be that he does not know anything about this particular creature. This compel would be the hook for the side plot, so he might just know enough to get into trouble (some monks in a far away monestry might know more. Too bad they are kung-fu ghoul monks[which you don't tell him right away, of course ].)

[BobForPresident]

  How do other people deal with submerged games and controlling information?

Info has to come from somewhere. If your character were in the 17th Century doing research, he would discover that the cure for the flu was, indisputably, putting a frog in your mouth. It was the most accurate, socially-accepted information at the time. It was also completely wrong. So a character particularly adept at gathering info or even just "knowing" stuff still has to deal with the fact that the info most likely to come up may be untrue, untested, or flat lies.

Keeping them out of a library is impractical, but giving them access to false info can be a helpful way to control things. Eventually, like everyone else, they will have to learn to check out the source, not just the words on the page.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I think devonapple has the right idea.  There's a good reason the rule books have references to libraries and time to do research.

I think there should be two levels of difficulty for lore checks.  The lower level is to know "Oh, yeah, I think I've heard of that, doesn't it have some weakness?" and the higher level is "Oh, that's an X! It's weakness is Y!".

Also, if your player is spending fate points on his lore rolls to get them super high, then he's obviously investing in knowing a lot. Let him have his fun with that.  Skill points and fate points invested in lore checks means he's not putting those resources into other areas, so you can find other ways to challenge him where he's weak.

Finally, you always have a few other options, such as splitting the party once in a while so the others don't have the benefit of his lore some of the time.  Or you could find a way to give him a compel to NOT know the answer to something.

Oh, and remember the catch rules - some weakness *aren't* known to anyone who hasn't done research (resulting in a lower catch value). Make sure you know ahead of time how much common knowledge there is about a given monster.

[zcthu3]

I just started running a submerged game and it's chalk-full of mystery.  Or, I guess, it's supposed to be.  The resident wizard has a Lore of 6.  I'd kind of imagined a mini adventure happening where they are trying to find out a creatures catch.  I find it hard to not give the players information when they are rolling Legendary +++ rolls.  With rolls like that, there's really no need to do research.  How do other people deal with submerged games and controlling information?

I started using the Time Table for modifiying the difficulty of research rolls (which is why I'm kicking myself for not using it for modifiying the complexity of combat Thaumaturgy before someone else pointed it out).

If it would normally require a Fantastic (+6) Lore and a "few hours of research" to find the information in a library (which would also need to be Fantastic) then trying to get the information in "a few moments" actually requires a roll of +13! If the information was normally Good (+3) to find in a library, it would require a roll of +10 to have it off the top of your head.

 

[polkaneverdies]

zcthu3 is right on target. High lore points you in the right direction and dramatically speeds up the research. Much of the time though it doesn't mean total recall of the most obscure minutiae.
One example from the books would be Harry trying to recall having read about the gruffs. It required him reading through a fair amount of material to find what he was looking for.

[EldritchFire]

I started using the Time Table for modifiying the difficulty of research rolls (which is why I'm kicking myself for not using it for modifiying the complexity of combat Thaumaturgy before someone else pointed it out).

If it would normally require a Fantastic (+6) Lore and a "few hours of research" to find the information in a library (which would also need to be Fantastic) then trying to get the information in "a few moments" actually requires a roll of +13! If the information was normally Good (+3) to find in a library, it would require a roll of +10 to have it off the top of your head.

 

This. The time chart is the most overlooked part of the rules. I love it. Yeah, you rolled high enough to find the info, but are you willing to spend the time needed? If you are, that may mean having to sit out on a few scenes as you pour over the materials.

I've been using this in my game. A character made a contacts roll to see if he knew someone who knew someone who knew about what they were looking for. That player had to sit out two scenes while he hit up his contacts.

-EF

[Samael]

I can't help but think that making a player sit out scenes for this sort of info thing more then a little stupid. I mean yeah I can see doing it that way if you have the "This is what I am doing while I go pick up the take out" scenario, but otherwise whats the point other then detract from the fun of the player in question.

[EldritchFire]

I can't help but think that making a player sit out scenes for this sort of info thing more then a little stupid. I mean yeah I can see doing it that way if you have the "This is what I am doing while I go pick up the take out" scenario, but otherwise whats the point other then detract from the fun of the player in question.

How else would you factor in time, then? Every action has a cost. Talking to your information network, or pouring through your library, takes time.

With being on a time crunch, you have to give and take. If they had all the time in the world, sure, I wouldn't have them sit out. But their friend had been kidnapped, so they wanted to get as much done as possible in as little time as possible.

-EF

[Samael]

Rather then making them sit out, I would run it as a mini-scene where the actual talking to contacts for the information and the like is actually role-played out. I mean if I was the player forced to not participate, honestly I would feel inclined to leave the table for twenty minutes (or however long the two scenes take) and read a book or something. Otherwise my time is being wasted and I am sitting there bored. With my method the player is engaged and having a good time and not feeling sorta left out of the group because of some arbitrary game mechanics.

[polkaneverdies]

There is definitely  merit to the idea of a miniscene with a character in that scenario. Not everything lends itself well to that though. A lot of scholarly research is going to be pretty low on excitement.
 Just for the record it is hardly an "arbitrary game mechanic" to suggest that doing things takes time.

[Samael]

Things take time is perfectly reasonable sure, but both as a GM and as a player I am not going to want force or be forced to not participate in the game because of something like that. If it had happened often enough in a game group truth be told I am not sure I would show up next session at all. Because if your not spending your time roleplaying what the point of actually bothering to come at all?

[zcthu3]

You don't force them to sit out, it's an option the player can choose to take if they really want to get the information.

For example, Ashley the Wizard wants to research the giant werewolf creature (a loup garou) she and her friends have just encountered in order to determine it's catch. The GM rules this is pretty rare information - I don't have my books handy to look up the actual value of the Catch so let's say it's a Great (+4) Difficulty and several hours in the library.

Ashley decides to try and do it in only half an hour as after that the rest of the group are heading out to meet with a WCV who may have some information on the Loup Garou's whereabouts. Trying to do the research in 30 minutes means the difficulty rises to Fantastic (+6). Ashley has a Lore of +5, but rolls a -2 (giving her +3), spending a Fate Point increases this back to +5, still not enough to find out the information in 30 minutes! The GM says that she can either complete the research by skipping a scene (effectively spending an hour on the research), or can choose to rely on the limited information she has.

Ashley's player now has a choice - ensure that she has the correct information by skipping the scene and meet up with the rest of the characters later, or hope she has sufficient information and go downtown to meet the WCV with the others.

Put the option back on the player, let them decide.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think that what Samael is trying to say is that "not playing" is not fun. So it should be avoided to the greatest extent possible.

Samael's issue is acknowledged by the core rules on page 262 of Your Story. I recommend that you all read the exchange between Harry and Billy there.

PS: How did the wizard get Lore 6? Did you raise the cap?