[GS Spoilers] Harry's Power Ups

[Serack]

I would argue that while he may have used his connection to the Outsiders when defeating HHWB, he was not aware of it (he probably just thought he got REALLY lucky or that Lea had done more to help him that she actually did, in fact I don't think he even knew, at the time, that HHWB was an Outsider). He did not learn or gain the knowledge until Lash mentioned it. As far as this goes I would say:

birth- he gained the innate ability
battle with HHWB- first unknowingly used the ability (and therefor perhaps the Outsiders became aware that he had this ability)
conversation with Lash- gained the knowledge of the ability (IIRC Lash directed his use of it at this point)
some unknown event- gains the skill of using the ability and/or fuller knowledge about it

Ok, your saying that he gains the skill threw me off, because he has already used it effectively, but other than the demonstration of the power that Lash did, Harry hasn't had any apparent benefit from any knowledge of his power greater than what he already had without the knowledge.  However if he reacted to that knowledge by taking his head out of the sand WRT his mom and started investigating his own origins, I would say that this knowledge did some good.

[rharalson]

Ok, your saying that he gains the skill threw me off, because he has already used it effectively, but other than the demonstration of the skill that Lash did, Harry hasn't had any apparent benefit from any knowledge of his power greater than what he already had without the knowledge.  However if he reacted to that knowledge by taking his head out of the sand WRT his mom and started investigating his own whereabouts, I would say that this knowledge did some good.

Yes it is a semantic thing, but perhaps one with some importance, and on further thought I would like to replace 'ability' with 'talent' as defined below.

Talent =a special natural ability or aptitude: ie. a talent for drawing.  something that you are born with not learned
Skill= the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well:ie. Carpentry was one of his many skills.

From this viewpoint, Harry's magic is a talent, while his use of veils would be a skill developed from that talent.

We probably need to know more about the nature of his connection to Outsiders and what it will allow him to do to fully classify it.
Is it just a part of his nature (like an immunity to poison ivy) that requires no active, conscious participation by Harry?
Is it a talent that can yield more with study but can be accessed on an instinctive level for somethings like self defense?

I do agree that at this point he hasn't really done anything with the knowledge (or perhaps awareness is a better word) that he has this quirk of birth, IIRC he hasn't even asked Bob about it (at least not 'on screen').

Of course these thoughts may be thread drift and not relevant to the list of power-ups. Also, I haven't been on the forum long so there could already be well held theories that I'm missing that have already defined this connection to Outsiders.

[Villentretenmerth]

Vadderdung - I'd lump him in with knowing Gard is an actual Valkyrie + what he saw in Monoc HQ as  knowledge/miscellanous. It is definitely a knowledge boost with very wide ramifications (helloooo old norse gods running around etc.).

Custodianship of the Swords - knowledge (via Molly's research he's learning some interesting things about the wielders) + alliance with the Knights and Church as an organization, not individual members.

That little crystal thingamajig he gave to Molly in Turn Coat to protect her and Thomas - Eb was surprised/interested that Harry "finally made that idea work" and again per Eb, the thing would've levelled the hill on the island if messed with. Skill.

Another from Turn Coat - strangulation with force+soulfire combination spell; took a hell of a lot of finesse and control, not something Harry had been known for up to that point. Skill.

Changes - combination fire / ice spell in Chicken Pizza of which Lea was most approving (she noted that very few could do a spell like that). Skill.

[kazimmoinuddin]

Can at some point expose BOB to mccoy book collection, including the merlin journals, over a thousand years of magic from powerful senior council magicans. bob could translate them all, and teach harry their secrets,

[Thanaeon]

It's been pointed out earlier in this thread, but the list is still missing this one:

FM - Befriended the Alphas A

[Alablast]

Can at some point expose BOB to mccoy book collection, including the merlin journals, over a thousand years of magic from powerful senior council magicans. bob could translate them all, and teach harry their secrets,

Does anybody else think this is a capital-B Bad Idea?

[lovejoy69]

I'm not sure how this would be categorized, but getting the coin and burying it called upon Harry for significant actions. First, Harry raced to out-reach toddler Harry C to slap his hand down over the coin to protect the child. That's a knowing and intentional act of sacrifice, because Harry knew how incredibly dangerous it was to touch a coin without protective fabric between skin and coin. There was no time to take any precautions because little Harry C would have grasped the coin, so Harry D chose to take the hit instead.

Second, and related, is that Harry immediately and decisively sealed the coin away from himself and everyone else. No one in the Church, which is the only history we know, has known of any other person who has resisted the temptation. That leads into a third point, or at least an extension of the second point, in that Harry kept resisting the temptation. Lash ran the gamut - more personal power, less personal discomforts, and perhaps the most insidious one, that of how much good Harry could accomplish for others if only he had the assistance of partnering with Lasciel and her fellow denarians.

A less courageous man would have hesitated that split second which would have meant that little Harry C got to the shiny thing first. Harry may not have a conventional set of beliefs about TWG and the afterlife, but Harry did know how absolutely devastated the lives of human hosts had all become.

Grabbing a hot metal poker without knowing that hot metal burns one's flesh is one thing. The poker will sear and scorch but the mental choice to grasp it was simply uninformed, not brave.
OTOH, to know what the red-hot metal will do to you, how excruciating the pain will be, and still to do so because one needs to do it in order to protect an innocent -- that's selflessness and valor.

Harry not only resisted Lash all that time but even interacted with her enough that he persuaded her to "self-actualize", if one were to wrap it in psych lingo. Harry persuaded her to form an intent of her own and to break with her own origin and source. She chose a better purpose for her existence than the one she had begun with. Without Harry, Lash wouldn't have become an entity of her own.

[Arjan]

Dark Harry wanted the temptation because he saw it as a chance. That is what he said. More or less as it turned out to be.
Harry could have tried to grab litle Harry or push him away (unless he was too close to the coin and there was no time to think).

Harry had these discussions with himself.

Harry handled it well at the end but dark temptation played a role from the beginning.

[Praeceps]

You mention that he reads the Word but you didn't mention his new necromantic abilities (some of which I have a feeling are caused by necro!Bob's attempt to convert him into something else but that's just speculation).

[Phariah]

i would lump his new bracelet under molly tbh. he was still walking around w/ his broken bracelet and after he got Molly as an apprentice he started reworking things. such as making his portable CSI style magic kit. also when he made his newer rings, the triple ones and one for each finger.

let's not forget his being accepted by Charity and becoming an adopted member of the Carpenter family. i would have to say it has given him new perspectives and the love of a family. i mean his reaction when Charity told him to stay after Michael was shot up was amazing. also when Charity was keeping up hope while Harry was flailing trying to track Molly. that is more of an ally imho. it gives him a resources for love. remember he needs to regen his soul after using soul-fire. having more people that cares for you has to help.

i would have to add Elaine in there somewhere tbh. it was with her help Harry created the Paranet w/ the weirguild given by Lara.

also where's Butters? he is a resource. also where's Murphy? i would classify her as an ally.

[Serack]

Ok I wrote up a reply to all the suggestions, but now I'm rewriting it in a different structure.

I am going to catagorize most of these suggestions and reply to the categories.

Necromancy
I spent some time thinking about this.  I almost feel like he may have had necromantic forays when he imbeued the spirits to attack Bianca in GP, but the definition of Necromantic magic might include enslavement to the casters will, whereas he just gave those spirits power and set them about their own way.  With all these grey lines clouding the necromantic power question, I came to the conclusion that the reading of the Word was something concrete that I could list as a "Power Up."  Short term, he used the info to disrupt Cowl's ascension, and long term he has used that knowledge as a threat or barganing tatic against 2 other powerful beings.  I'm letting that one entry also (imperfectly) represent any other necromantic strength he may have gained, because lets face it: anything he might have been able to do before must have been seriously augmented by what he learned there.

Allies (and the swords)
This is a tough one.  I'd rather not make this into a list crouded with every person and being that has influenced Harry in a remotely positive manor.  That said, there are plenty of instances where Harry is stronger because of an association, and some of those are so significant that I think they are the equivalent of eating a magic power up mushroom, and that the loss of which should be accompanied by the sound effect you get when big mario runs into a goomba and shrinks.

So things I think about when I consider adding an ally (or marker) are...  What is this person/being's own "power" level?  How strong is the bond?  Has emphasis been placed on the alliance in the narration or by other characters (the little people!!!)?  In the case of some, this is also complicated by the fact that the relationships and the allies themselves are growing throughout the series, so when would I point to the alliance as becoming  a significant power up? 

In the case of adding (and detracting) the Knights/swords, this is complicated by the custodianships to the point that I don't even really want to go into those any farther than I already have.

Enchanted Items
This is similar to the allies in that it can get crouded with things that become less and less significant.  Mostly, I have only included the ones that Jim put screen time into talking up how they were significant in how Harry had to seriously up his game when he made them.  The shield crystal might fit there, but it feels more like a plot device than an illustration of Harry's increased magical prowess... Kinda like the bear buckle.

As to the placement of the shield bracelet in a subcategory... I can't check the book right now, but I seem to remember emphasis in the text being that the motivation for his revamping the design was a directy tied to the trauma he had to endure due to the defficiency of the old design.

[Rasins]

Didn't Lash teach Harry a better mode for handling pain under pressure.  I'd say that was a skill worth having in Harry's line of work.

Okay, and I know it only had a bit-part, but I personally think his development of that rope used to tie Susan up (and set up for Maggie Jr.) was really cool.  Was it a power-up, no.  But still, the magic rope is still cool.

[Quantus]

Ok I wrote up a reply to all the suggestions, but now I'm rewriting it in a different structure.

I am going to catagorize most of these suggestions and reply to the categories.

Necromancy
I spent some time thinking about this.  I almost feel like he may have had necromantic forays when he imbeued the spirits to attack Bianca in GP, but the definition of Necromantic magic might include enslavement to the casters will, whereas he just gave those spirits power and set them about their own way.  With all these grey lines clouding the necromantic power question, I came to the conclusion that the reading of the Word was something concrete that I could list as a "Power Up."  Short term, he used the info to disrupt Cowl's ascension, and long term he has used that knowledge as a threat or barganing tatic against 2 other powerful beings.  I'm letting that one entry also (imperfectly) represent any other necromantic strength he may have gained, because lets face it: anything he might have been able to do before must have been seriously augmented by what he learned there.

Allies (and the swords)
This is a tough one.  I'd rather not make this into a list crouded with every person and being that has influenced Harry in a remotely positive manor.  That said, there are plenty of instances where Harry is stronger because of an association, and some of those are so significant that I think they are the equivalent of eating a magic power up mushroom, and that the loss of which should be accompanied by the sound effect you get when big mario runs into a goomba and shrinks.

So things I think about when I consider adding an ally (or marker) are...  What is this person/being's own "power" level?  How strong is the bond?  Has emphasis been placed on the alliance in the narration or by other characters (the little people!!!)?  In the case of some, this is also complicated by the fact that the relationships and the allies themselves are growing throughout the series, so when would I point to the alliance as becoming  a significant power up? 

In the case of adding (and detracting) the Knights/swords, this is complicated by the custodianships to the point that I don't even really want to go into those any farther than I already have.

Enchanted Items
This is similar to the allies in that it can get crouded with things that become less and less significant.  Mostly, I have only included the ones that Jim put screen time into talking up how they were significant in how Harry had to seriously up his game when he made them.  The shield crystal might fit there, but it feels more like a plot device than an illustration of Harry's increased magical prowess... Kinda like the bear buckle.

As to the placement of the shield bracelet in a subcategory... I can't check the book right now, but I seem to remember emphasis in the text being that the motivation for his revamping the design was a directy tied to the trauma he had to endure due to the defficiency of the old design.

Makes sense, just gunna toss a few things out there. 

The Necromancy bit, in DB was the first time he messe with necromancy (in the sense of necro as a diff energy type that necrobob showed him and the kemlerites could sense on him and sue was created to be a giant field of to protect from the darkhallow and yay run-on's) whereas at bianca's party he just poured out a boatload of his own (ordinary) power, which gave them enough energy to act on their own will.  Had there been necromancy involved, the Merlin would have used that as the excuse to kill him in the beginning of SK.

On Allies, Id go with them in the Fae sense: one person being used as a tool of another.  So the Alpha's and the Za Guard/Militia and maybe even molly would be his tools, and in the case of Mab/Uriel/Grey Council(?) he is basically their agent and so legally speaking their tool, and so don't count;  instead they usually grant something else in return (soulfire, Knight Mantle, etc).  Then you have the special cases like Michael who is basically family, Lara who is the tool and the tool user at the same time, and Marcone who is Gadara 

On Items, I agree with your point on the crystal, especially since eb said it was something he had been trying to work out for years.   The shield bracelet redesign on the other hand was prompted by the fire in the sense that Mavra pointed out a flaw in his defensive strategy, but also the new model itself was basically more complex than anything he had previously been able to make, and also required a significantly larger amount of energy to operate, which he said he would not have been able to do earlier.  So its a powerup in the sense of a vast increase to his defensive arsenal, but personally its also a demonstration of his significant growth as a wizard, which is partially but not entirely attributed to his teaching an apprentice.  Not sure where that leaves it in terms of "power-up" for this list, now that I look at it... 

Didn't Lash teach Harry a better mode for handling pain under pressure.  I'd say that was a skill worth having in Harry's line of work.

Okay, and I know it only had a bit-part, but I personally think his development of that rope used to tie Susan up (and set up for Maggie Jr.) was really cool.  Was it a power-up, no.  But still, the magic rope is still cool.

Ya, definitely.  Especially since he used it again in SmF, which did not go unnoticed by the nickleheads.

[Phariah]

Shield bracelet. WK page 96 (novel)

If there hadn't been a war on, and if i hadn't been spending so much time drilling Molly in the fundamentals- and therefore getting in all kinds of extra practice myself- I would never have considered attempting to create such a complex focus. it was far more complicated than anything i'd done before. five years ago, it would have been beyond me completely. more to the point, five years ago, i wouldn't have been as experienced or as strongly motivated.

yes the fire pointed out a flaw in his bracelet that his enemies had started to figure out. but if he hadn't gained Molly as an apprentice he would never had increased his skill up enough to created it at this time. so yes fire gave him the idea but his time with Molly gave him the ability to create it. so if i had to decide, i would say this goes under the Molly sub-section. i mean he had the broken bracelet for awhile and didn't remake it until after he had taken Molly as apprentice.

[Quantus]

But at that point every increase in his base magical usage (as opposed to soulfire, mantles, etc) from here on out would go under the Molly Subsection.  Gaining an apprentice was a major turning point in his magical education, but really has nothing to do with molly herself.