Is anyone else annoyed by Physical Immunity?

[Sanctaphrax]

ways and means, I had trouble reading your post. So please forgive me if I make a mistake in my response.

But I think that you are wrong on at least two counts.

The first problem is that you balance PI only against Toughness. All that Recovery does is let you handle damage better. If you are immune to damage, then it is obsolete. There is no situation where Supernatural Toughness + Recovery is better than PI unless you take into account the ability to go without rest. Which is worth less than 1 refresh, and therefore not enough to balance out anything.

The second problem is that you see no problem with messing up high-level play. The game works at 18 refresh. I play it at 18 refresh. The only houseruling that's really needed is the ability to expand Toughness. So why would you remove that option? To benefit play at lower levels? Because pretty much nobody will let you take PI with a +0 catch at Submerged, and so this should never have any effect.

On another note, I don't think that it's easy to bypass Toughness of any kind. You can't make social attacks during a physical conflict, at least not under normal circumstances by my reading.

And on yet another note, may I take the lack of criticism for the lower levels of PI as a sign that I costed them correctly?

[ways and means]

My post was a bit indecipherable sorry. I would argue that limiting toughness to mythic dosen't nessesarily mess up with high level play, that it just places the focus on powers like magic or amusingly PI. This focus actually seems in line with the fiction (I know Sanctaphrax hates examples from the novels but the rp is called the dresden files) where the heavy hitters all have magic and PI (Fairy Queens, High Sidhe, Angels) and the higher level enemies such denarians usually have all round mythic level physical abilities (or less). As mythic level powers are powerful enough for creatures like the denarians it seems to me that going beyond that moves the character into plot device territory where PI is appropriate.  

As for Social Combat in physical combat I haven't found a rule directly prohibiting it, the way Your Story talks physical, social and mental combat all happen in different formats but given that most people allow mental attacks during physical combat I don't see why social combat can't take place too. The obvious arguement against this is that physical combat would make social combat impossible but at worst I would argue that physical combat noise would only act as a block against social combat rather than prohibiting it entirely. People are talked down during combat in the books and in real life though it is rare. Also intimidation is a natural part of combat so it very much makes sense to at least allow intimidation rolls during physical combat.    

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd certainly allow Intimidation maneuvers and Declarations in combat. But the circumstances would have to be pretty special for attacks to work. Basically, I just don't want social characters to be able to take out combat monsters in physical combat.

Your example from the novels is unfortunately very solid. This is exactly why I hate examples from the novels. Trying to imitate the novels can make the game less good as a game. Which I try to avoid at all costs.

But I have to concede that the Toughness powers of the characters in the novels probably do top out at Mythic. Bah.

This is another reason I hate examples from the novels: they make me lose arguments.

[sinker]

That was one of the things I kept trying to emphasize earlier, but ways and means seems to have articulated it better. The question is never why not take PI but why take PI? It needs to be justified by your high concept, and since Denarians apparently don't justify it... Anyways, thanks for the back up W&M.

Secondly Sanctaphrax I don't like the fact that you're comparing PI to toughness and recovery. I understand saying that recovery is just another way to manage stress and consequences. However what happens if someone with PI takes physical consequences? I can think of two ways to do it (concessions and self-inflicted consequences ala rituals or similar) and I've only been thinking for a few minutes. The consequences stick around for just as long as they would for a pure mortal. PI has none of the advantages of recovery, and the comparison is less than functional.

[toturi]

The question is never why not take PI but why take PI?

If the question is why take PI, then the correct answer to that would be why not?

[InFerrumVeritas]

If the question is why take PI, then the correct answer to that would be why not?

Because it doesn't suit your high concept. 

[toturi]

Because it doesn't suit your high concept.  

The question still remains why not?

The high concept can always be tweaked to accomodate having PI. If you want PI, take it and then come up with some reason why your character has it.

[Lanir]

My gut feeling is that having PI prevents enough of the detrimental effects of combat to be a reasonable equivalent to a high toughness and some level of recovery. Someone else can probably articulate that better than me though.

The high power vs low power thing is largely about scaling. PI is an absolute so it's harder to scale. It either works with absolute effectiveness or fails absolutely and does nothing. No granularity at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying it's a power PCs won't get. Stories tend to be best when the characters are challenged and we see that happening most effectively when their fight against the bad guys has consequences. Part of the heroic journey is recognizing those consequences and overcoming them. I realize we're only talking of one type of consequence here among many but it's one of the easiest types to apply in a roleplaying game and it's likely to be the "weapon of choice" especially for lower powered PCs. So really the objective is to price it so it doesn't pop up too early, before you can reasonably expect characters to have an effective secondary attack method that isn't ignored by PI.

As a GM you probably don't want defensive powers soaking up most of a PCs refresh. I saw someone do that in a White Wolf Vampire game once. One of the players min-maxed his way to the most defensive tricks he could get. I was playing a well rounded character and just outperformed him for quite awhile. Once he got enough experience to buy a reasonable offense though, that all reversed and suddenly I was left in the dust while he just waded through things. I think PI will have the same sort of game utility. When you can first afford it, it's not very useful. If you can back it up with Channeling, Evocation, Sponsored Magic, or something else with a bit of punch and the appropriate skill levels, you're pretty much set though. At that point you kind of end up like a mini Superman. The stories become more about whether Lois Lane has been kidnapped or someone has your kryptonite. The only way the bad guys can use new tactics is by hiding who or where they are from you. That sounds a bit boring to me.

[toturi]

As a GM you probably don't want defensive powers soaking up most of a PCs refresh. I saw someone do that in a White Wolf Vampire game once. One of the players min-maxed his way to the most defensive tricks he could get. I was playing a well rounded character and just outperformed him for quite awhile. Once he got enough experience to buy a reasonable offense though, that all reversed and suddenly I was left in the dust while he just waded through things.

I think the player was willing to play the long game and wait for his investment to pay off. I find that so-called well-rounded characters often are more about instant gratification than anything else. If someone is willing to wait for his day in the sun and aiming for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I think it shows a commitment to game in the long term.

[UmbraLux]

The high concept can always be tweaked to accomodate having PI. If you want PI, take it and then come up with some reason why your character has it.

Can they?  For a high concept to give a reason for physical immunity it's going to say something extreme about your character.  You're probably a ghost, spirit, or other intangible being.  That's fairly limiting.

Whatever the concept, there should be associated baggage.  Spirits have difficulty affecting the real world.  Invulnerable intelligent diamonds don't move or talk.  Etc.

[InFerrumVeritas]

This is something that I think a lot of people miss:

Powers must be tied to your high concept.  This is why they are allowed to be better than stunts.  Anyone can take a stunt.  Powers are limited to only a few.

Supernatural powers also come at a greater price beyond the simple math of your character’s refresh rate. No supernatural ability may exist in a vacuum—it must come about due to specific reasons rooted in your character’s concept.  At the very least, this usually means that the supernatural abilities must clearly derive from your character’s high concept (page 54), but other requirements may exist as well—see the Types & Templates chapter...for the particulars for each character type.

You can't just take them willy nilly.  Being really tough is pretty easy to fit in to a character concept.  A lot of monsters heal faster or have thicker skin than mortals.  Things that are actually immune to damage?  Far more rare.

[toturi]

Can they?  For a high concept to give a reason for physical immunity it's going to say something extreme about your character.  You're probably a ghost, spirit, or other intangible being.  That's fairly limiting.

They can. The character can just as easily have physical immunity because God said so, or fell into a river and got washed up on the banks like that. The High Concept can simply even be Invulnerable Man.

[UmbraLux]

They can. The character can just as easily have physical immunity because God said so, or fell into a river and got washed up on the banks like that. The High Concept can simply even be Invulnerable Man.

I suspect many groups would simply say that doesn't fit their game style. 

But let's say it was allowed...we have Invulnerable Man...who's only unnatural ability seems to be physical invulnerability.  His concept locks him in to a narrow set of powers.  Probably wouldn't be too terribly an opponent.  And he become easy once others find his Catch.

You could go further with concepts I suppose...I'm Mary Sue makes for one which can do anything.  But do you really want to play a Mary Sue?  Personally, I think flaws help define the characters. 

[toturi]

But let's say it was allowed...we have Invulnerable Man...who's only unnatural ability seems to be physical invulnerability.  His concept locks him in to a narrow set of powers.  Probably wouldn't be too terribly an opponent.  And he become easy once others find his Catch.

You could go further with concepts I suppose...I'm Mary Sue makes for one which can do anything.  But do you really want to play a Mary Sue?  Personally, I think flaws help define the characters. 

I never claimed that Invulerable Man would be too terrible an opponent. All I was saying is that it is not that difficult to come up with a high concept with ties to Physical Immunity.

I like Mary Sue and her boyfriend Gary. I also agree that flaws help define the characters, as much so as their strengths. But ultimately I want my characters to succeed; the easier, quicker and more complete the success the better and more satisfying. Mary makes her flaws work for her.

[BumblingBear]

Real men:  Take a mild Toughness power to better survive the battles they fight for others.

Real Roleplayers:  Don't take a toughness power at all, and mutter that those who do are min maxers.

Real Loonies:  Take Physical Immunity to Cheese.

Real Munchkins:  Take Physical Immunity with the catch being cheese, a toughness power on top of that (in case the enemy coats their weapons with cheese) and wants invisible IOP armor that specifically protects against cheese, probably made by sacrificing the Loony.