Ambush out of a veil. Do you allow it? How do you do it?

[Papa Gruff]

Hello everybody.

Today I'd like to get a little debate going about the question of ambushes out of veils. During our last gaming session the winter knight in my game decided to veil himself and do a magical attack (could have been a maneuver my memory is a little fuzzy) onto two mortals that where guarding a train. He stated that since he was veiled and sneaky the ambush rules should apply.

In that situation I wasn't sure how to react. On the one side I can see some validity in the statement of my player. The concepts of veils and ambushes are reasonably comparable, yet the idea of ambush rules out of veils can lead to some pretty nasty rule breaking / power gaming. Imagine: It's relatively easy to create a powerful veil around your self. I won't go into detail on this, because I believe that by now we all understand the magic rules good enough to acknowledge this as true. The power of the veil makes it pretty much impossible for mortals and low to mid-level supernatural baddies to break it. Not only is the wizard able to carry his ambush around with him (since veils aren't stationary as common ambushes usually are) he is also able to cast a powerful magical attack from out under it that, if ambush rules apply and the ambush/veil isn't discovered is apposed only by mediocre skill-levels. The extra shifts that can come out of this are ... well ... potentially insane.

As I didn't want to create a precedent at my table I didn't allow the combination of veils and ambush rules at that point, but neither me nor my players where really happy with it. I'm curious on what other GM think about this and if similar situations have come up elsewhere.

My only idea so far is to make the ambush rules still apply in some form. For example the stealth role could still apply to set up the ambush. Since setting an ambush has lots to do with good positioning and terrain abuse this makes some sense to me. But how to do it? You could make the stealth roll aided by the power of the veil. You could do it the other way around and modify the discipline role for the veil by the stealth skill. It all seems clumsy to me.

Input please!

[Belial666]

Yes, ambushes out of veils should work. A few points however;

1) Veils, whether through True Magic or Glamours are supernatural effects. The Lore skill, for supernaturally aware people, can be used for supernatural perception. That will not pierce the veil but will tell whoever is sensing it that something is wrong and they'd be on guard. I.e. they would still not act in the surprise round or be able to tell the exact location of the enemy but they would not have their defenses reduced to 0. The more powerful the veil, the more magic there is to sense so making a veil stronger does not help.

2) The Sight automatically pierces veils when open and gives a bonus to supernatural perception (see above) even when closed. Supernatural Senses may also ignore veils - if you can see magic for example, you will see the veil, even though what the veil hides might be concealed. Echoes of the Beast may give you additional perception trappings that most veils might not cover - i.e. a werewolf's sense of smell would ignore simple invisibility and so would a bat's sonar or a snake's infravision.

3) Foci and other magical items have a metaphysical size, in addition to their real size. If someone is carrying a +4 focus around, everyone with supernatural knowledge/training would get a +4 to their supernatural perception rolls to sense its presence. Thus wizards cannot easily use veils to sneak in with too much magical firepower.

4) Veils can't do anything vs precognition. Someone with "Cassandra's Tears" or "A Few Seconds Ahead" is justified in keeping their defense rolls vs veiled opponents, even though the veils could still prevent them from knowing where to strike back.

5) Cloak of Shadows is cheaper than veils and is a +2 to your stealth. In addition, you can see in the dark so you can tag darkness-related aspects for a bonus to stealth without any penalties. A stealth-trained vampire is essentially as hard to detect with normal perception as a faerie with Greater Glamours. Though the faerie could be sneaky in the day as well, the vampire is not going to go out in daylight anyway.


In the end, veils are better for an escape or defense (because the other guy doesn't know where to aim), or for sneaking up to those without trained supernatural awareness or extra senses. Sneaking up to a trained wizard might work... if that wizard is as inexperienced in the subtler parts of magic as Harry was in Summer Knight (i.e. a Lore of +3 or less) and they might still sense something is wrong.

[Taran]

My question is, how often do opponents defend at 0?  If they never peirce the veil, do they ever know where the attacks are coming from?  Is it just the initial attack/ambush?  Do you need an exchange between attacks to re-set the ambush?  Do opponents get a bonus to know where attacks are coming from after each exchange?

The thing about veils that confuses me is, as belial666 says, maybe a werecreature can smell you because you're not veiled against smell.  But do veils automatically cover sound?  If you're invisible, it doesn't mean you also make no sound.  There still might be a stealth check involved here.  I'm not sure how to adjudicate that.  Maybe you need extra shifts for each "sense" you're trying to cover up.  I might adjudicate it that way.  This way you might have a power 8 veil against sight, Power 7 vs sight and sound, power 6 vs sight sound and smell etc..

@ Belial666 He's talking about mortals.  Not things with supernatural powers.

@ Papa Gruff - You have to remember that ifyou're using veils as evocation, the timing of an ambush is difficult.  You have to put shifts into duration to get your ambush set up - assuming you have to be in a position where your opponent didn't hear/see you cast the spell in the first place.  As well, you may even have to put extra shifts into duration in a consecutive round(s).

1. So, you're using power for duration, which makes the veil less powerful and easier to detect
2. You're taking mental stress on potentially multiple exchanges - and you still haven't even attacked yet.

[UmbraLux]

The concepts of veils and ambushes are reasonably comparable, yet the idea of ambush rules out of veils can lead to some pretty nasty rule breaking / power gaming. Imagine: It's relatively easy to create a powerful veil around your self. I won't go into detail on this, because I believe that by now we all understand the magic rules good enough to acknowledge this as true. The power of the veil makes it pretty much impossible for mortals and low to mid-level supernatural baddies to break it. Not only is the wizard able to carry his ambush around with him (since veils aren't stationary as common ambushes usually are) he is also able to cast a powerful magical attack from out under it that, if ambush rules apply and the ambush/veil isn't discovered is apposed only by mediocre skill-levels. The extra shifts that can come out of this are ... well ... potentially insane.

Why do you see this as a problem?  It's very situational due to a veil's limitations.  Besides, the PCs should trash low level opposition!

Just keep a veil's limitations in mind.  A big one is simply remembering it's not invisibility.  Even a "don't notice me" veil lets you see someone there at a subconscious level (and possibly enough to allow a roll to avoid surprise in some situations).  The better ambush veils are going to be illusory - those which make you appear to be something harmless.  Another limitation is time.  Evocation veils are per exchange...and the more shifts you put into duration, the easier it will be to see through it.  Thaumaturgy veils require a symbol - which may or may not be portable.  A True Seeming is possibly the best veil-like tactic...but that dedicates a fairly significant amount of refresh to a power which doesn't do anything other than conceal.  Shouldn't it be good?

[Papa Gruff]

Maybe it's a miss perception on my side born from my understanding of veils witch might be tainted by how they are described in the novels.

Outside of conflict I usually pretty much hand wave the duration of veils, because they would be utterly useless otherwise (they would drain the mental stress track really fast and at least my players wouldn't ever use them again out of conflict). Maybe that's my mistake but like I see it this is in par with the canon. As the ambush situation is a conflict starter, the relevance of this limitation is somewhat rendered mute.

Again maybe my understanding of the rules has been mislead, but the idea of a veil is a block against perception, yes? Therefor it blocks the perception through every sense, may it be olfactory, acoustic or otherwise. @UmbraLux ... Now, if the veil blocks only against one kind of sense, then you are right. However: My reading of the block and magic rules tell me that the block is total. At least that is how me and my players are handling it at the moment. I don't have a huge problem with anything. I just don't see veils as greatly limited. Quite the contrary.

@belial666: You first point seems interesting and makes sense to me. If a veil gets stronger it seems reasonable that it should be easier to detect with supernatural perception. Problem is that this isn't in the rules. A block versus perception is always a block versus perception. It doesn't matter if it is supernatural perception or not. Rule wise if the block is strong enough, it won't be broken and we are back at the starting point. Secondly what @Taran stated is right. I'm aware of the possibilities by witch a veil may be circumvented. But that isn't the point of this thread...

I want do discuss the possibilities an resulting ramifications of using the ambush rule in conjunction with magical veils and magical attacks.

[Taran]

My point is that evocation is limited.  And veils done with evocation are limited because of duration.  If you hand-wave duration outside of combat, then I can see veils being extremely potent.  Now, exchanges are an abstract amount of time, so each one could be a few minutes.  But even so, I wouldn't allow a wizard to walk around with a semi-permanent veil.  If you want a long-lasting veil, you need to pump duration into it and it's going to make the veil weaker and cost stress.  

If one of my players wanted a veil for one scene, I'd say that one exchange, being "a few moments", is about 3 minutes.  One scene, by default on the time chart, is about 15 minutes.  So that's 5 shifts into duration.  How much is left for the power of your veil? As well, if you want to veil the whole party, that's another 2 shifts.

[Taran]

My only idea so far is to make the ambush rules still apply in some form. For example the stealth role could still apply to set up the ambush. Since setting an ambush has lots to do with good positioning and terrain abuse this makes some sense to me. But how to do it? You could make the stealth roll aided by the power of the veil. You could do it the other way around and modify the discipline role for the veil by the stealth skill. It all seems clumsy to me.

Input please!

I've read on another thread (I'll try to find it) that people use a veil as an opportunity for an ambush.  Meaning you could set up an ambush in a circumstance where it might not normally be possible.  So in mid-combat, for instance, the wizard veils someone and this gives that person an opportunity to do an Stealth vs Awareness.  The success of the stealth check indicates whether or not the opponent is surprised, not the veil.

EDIT:  I found the thread and I mis-read it.  The opponent roles vs the veil.

I think, after re-reading the ambush rules, only allow the first attack to be an "ambush".  Afterwards, the opponent is aware of an enemy who is targeting them and will take evasive maneuvers making it hard to get a second "ambush attack".  If you want to ambush them again, then you'd have to use a fate points and compel them somehow.  It would still be almost impossible to target the veiled foe.  Once again, they can use a fate point to declare that they saw where they're being shot from and peirce the veil.

[devonapple]

I run veils the way Billy's sidebar comment recommends: not charging shifts for duration, and just allowing them to persist (usually a scene or so) until pierced.

I would rule that
a) the Veil substitutes for the Stealth roll for setting up the Ambush
b) the first attack "pierces" the veil (though I would allow a player tagging an environmental Aspect like "Darkness" or "Fog" to rule that the attack didn't pierce the Veil - and even then, the target would still be able to defend against the next attack normally)

But what if a Stealthy character is veiled? Surely they can Ambush better than a clumsy character? Yes, they can: Maneuver to set up an Aspect like "Professionally Placed" or "Devastating Backstab" using your actual Stealth skill.

[Quasispike]

*Delurking*

Alright, so here's my take on this one, a veil used in an ambush situation allows a tag of the aspect Veiled for the stealth roll.

My thoughts follow thusly; When Murphy and Harry discover Molly at the beginning of the crime scene in White Night they list off all the clues she gave away while veiled that allowed them to detect her (creaking floorboards, her perfume, ect.) but they didn't see her at all. So veils are blocks against sight, not necessarily the other senses. (more on that in a bit). During Small Favor, footprints are clearly left in the wake of a veil, another clue. Thus while a veil is helpful in setting up an ambush it's by no means foolproof.

As to covering the other senses, I'd liken it to Harry in Fool Moon when he's brewing potions he's talking about an invisibility potion and Bob tells him no way no how, just too many senses to cover (granted he's talking about hiding from a werewolf but I think it still applies here). That leads me to an interesting question, the sidebar on YS 252 A Block is a block is a block, talks about using assessments and declarations to define weak points in an opponents defense. Should the NPCs who are about to get ambushed be allowed to roll make declarations to help them perceive the veil?

Lastly while re-reading the section on veils last time I noticed this YS pg 276 has a passage to the effect that veils block perception both ways, to overcome this limitation you have to increase the shifts by two. Yep that's right you veil yourself and sure you can't be seen but everything YOU see is blurry unless your putting more shifts (which don't contribute to the strength) into the spell.

*Lurk mode engaged*

[EdgeOfDreams]

Lastly while re-reading the section on veils last time I noticed this YS pg 276 has a passage to the effect that veils block perception both ways, to overcome this limitation you have to increase the shifts by two. Yep that's right you veil yourself and sure you can't be seen but everything YOU see is blurry unless your putting more shifts (which don't contribute to the strength) into the spell.

This is a very important limitation on veils that needs to be remembered.  Needing to roll Alertness yourself to see your target makes ambushes at least a bit harder.

Also, I agree with the idea that only the first attack from under the veil has a CHANCE to force defending from zero.  After that, either the veil is dropped (it's hard to maintain a veil and cast other spells together) or the target is aware they are being attacked and get to defend, perhaps with only a -1 penalty, and should be making alertness rolls or other actions to deal with the veil every round (e.g. the old bag-of-flour trick or whatever).

[zenten]

Also, I agree with the idea that only the first attack from under the veil has a CHANCE to force defending from zero.  After that, either the veil is dropped (it's hard to maintain a veil and cast other spells together) or the target is aware they are being attacked and get to defend, perhaps with only a -1 penalty, and should be making alertness rolls or other actions to deal with the veil every round (e.g. the old bag-of-flour trick or whatever).

I just give the veiled character the "Invisible" aspect.  If you want to spend a Fate point for a +2 bonus on dodging an attack or to make an attacker harder to dodge, sure, but bringing in situation modifiers like you're suggesting sets a messy precedent.

[Taran]

I run veils the way Billy's sidebar comment recommends: not charging shifts for duration, and just allowing them to persist (usually a scene or so) until pierced.

What page is this on?

[sinker]

Outside of conflict I usually pretty much hand wave the duration of veils, because they would be utterly useless otherwise (they would drain the mental stress track really fast and at least my players wouldn't ever use them again out of conflict). Maybe that's my mistake but like I see it this is in par with the canon. As the ambush situation is a conflict starter, the relevance of this limitation is somewhat rendered mute.

I'm with you on this, even inside of conflict sometimes (though usually only when the veil is being used avoid conflict). If you've ever tried to use a veil you'd know that it's a lot harder to use a veil to achieve something when you have to worry about exchanges and duration. When it's not going to be game breaking I don't worry about the duration.

@belial666: You first point seems interesting and makes sense to me. If a veil gets stronger it seems reasonable that it should be easier to detect with supernatural perception. Problem is that this isn't in the rules. A block versus perception is always a block versus perception. It doesn't matter if it is supernatural perception or not. Rule wise if the block is strong enough, it won't be broken and we are back at the starting point. Secondly what @Taran stated is right. I'm aware of the possibilities by witch a veil may be circumvented. But that isn't the point of this thread...

I think belial is merely trying to point out that it is weaker in some circumstances, and I would agree. If your veil is 6-8 shifts that's going to block most people's alertness rolls, but if someone's already got a +4-6 (+2 for supernatural senses and probably at least +2 for gear, etc) before you even factor in their lore (which will be high) then it makes it much more likely that they'll pierce it.

I run veils the way Billy's sidebar comment recommends: not charging shifts for duration, and just allowing them to persist (usually a scene or so) until pierced.

I would rule that
a) the Veil substitutes for the Stealth roll for setting up the Ambush
b) the first attack "pierces" the veil (though I would allow a player tagging an environmental Aspect like "Darkness" or "Fog" to rule that the attack didn't pierce the Veil - and even then, the target would still be able to defend against the next attack normally)

But what if a Stealthy character is veiled? Surely they can Ambush better than a clumsy character? Yes, they can: Maneuver to set up an Aspect like "Professionally Placed" or "Devastating Backstab" using your actual Stealth skill.

Agreed on all points Devonapple. I think there might even be RAW backing for the attack breaking the veil, but I don't remember. Also, it's still an option for them to roll stealth and they can take the higher of the two.

My thoughts follow thusly; When Murphy and Harry discover Molly at the beginning of the crime scene in White Night they list off all the clues she gave away while veiled that allowed them to detect her (creaking floorboards, her perfume, ect.) but they didn't see her at all. So veils are blocks against sight, not necessarily the other senses. (more on that in a bit). During Small Favor, footprints are clearly left in the wake of a veil, another clue. Thus while a veil is helpful in setting up an ambush it's by no means foolproof.

Consider this: Molly is really only capable of generating a few shifts for an evocation spell at that point in the series. Harry and Murphy both have pretty good alertness skills. It's not tough to beat a block of 2 or 3.

This is a very important limitation on veils that needs to be remembered.  Needing to roll Alertness yourself to see your target makes ambushes at least a bit harder.

I don't like the concept of having to roll alertness to see your target for two reasons. 1) the veil makes it harder to see, it does not make it impossible to see. Seems ridiculous to create something that makes you invisible, but also makes the world just as invisible to you. 2) If you have to roll to see if you can roll things get a bit frustrating. It's just not good game mechanics, too many rolls, etc.

Having said that I would definitely give a penalty (likely 2) to their shot or a bonus to their target's defense.

Really I don't see anything game breaking about allowing the ambush rules to apply to veils so long as you aren't allowing them to maintain those veils after the first attack. They get a really good first attack, maybe in the situation you outlined he takes them both out stealthily (assuming they're both mooks) and then he has to either take time and energy to create another veil, or we move on and there's conflict. Additionally I don't think I'd allow them to use the ambush rules mid conflict. An ambush really does mean that the enemy is completely unaware of you. After that first attack they're on edge and trying to be ready for the next attack. You might get a bonus to your attack if you're veiled but they aren't going to defend at zero.

[devonapple]

What page is this on?

I don't have it at the moment - if somebody else can please link to it, that'd be awesome - otherwise I'll get to it later.

[sinker]

It's YS255:

Duration with Evocation veils
is largely a matter of GM judgment call.
Personally I wouldn’t go for “1 shift gets
you one extra exchange” with a veil;
I’d just let it hang around until something
pierces it, or until the end of the scene. I
see them simply as REALLY GOOD magical
Stealth rolls.