Author Topic: The Art Of Enthrallment For Fun And Profit--How To. [No Law Talk, please]  (Read 5891 times)

Offline bibliophile20

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Hey all, I'm back.  Whew, talk about the month from hell.  Finals, my desktop self-destructing, and other interesting--in the Chinese curse sense--things all going on.  Saying more might tempt Murphy, so...  *shrug* 

So, I'm running a campaign for the summer for some of my friends, and I'm statting out one of the long-term villains and I need some advice.

Said bad guy is a human businessman and backroom politico with a misogynistic streak (he misses the '90s.  The 1890s, and the idealized vision of that time when "everyone knew their place" that was passed down to him from his grandfather) with an Item Of Power--a family ring--that enables him to manipulate people and create fine thralls. 

Thus, I am currently debating on what suite of powers would work most effective and with the greatest degree of stealth. 

Right now, debating between either Domination [-2 refresh] or Incite Emotions Greed, Lust and Fear [-3 refresh], or possibly Ritual: Psychomancy [-2], or some combination thereof (not to exceed -5 refresh), as well as how, mechanically, enthralling someone would work and what are the limits of each approach (the Thralls entry in Our World (pg 82-3) indicates that Incite Emotion would work for short term fine thralls, Psychomancy for long term fine thralls, and that Domination is only good for rough thralls and Renfields).

And no Law Talk please; since this is via an IoP, it is technically not a violation of the Laws, but I doubt the Wardens would see it that way, and that's how I'm going to run it.
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Offline Bruce Coulson

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I would go with Incite Emotions, with the various additions to make them ranged and lasting.

Why?  Because people who want to do something are better at it, and more creative, than those you command.  Someone who not only 'knows their place', but agrees that that is 'their place' will not only obey you, but will work towards having other people accept that as normal.  It would be a better method to re-create 'Our Town'.  Also, it can mean more red herrings; converts who accepts your antagonist's world view, but has never been influenced directly by his power.

It also means that there can be minor antagonists who might be aware (vaguely) of what's going on, but support it for completely selfish reasons.

If you give your antagonist high levels of Rapport, Empathy, and Presence, he's capable of persuading people without even resorting to his powers; even better.  (High Resources is nice, but you can only bribe so many people...)

For added angst, make your antagonist genuinely concerned about the welfare of the city and its residents.  Noblesse Oblige, as it were; he donates to charities, promote civic projects, that sort of thing.  Make his eventual removal something that will cost the town; in Resources, in good will, in general benefits.
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Offline sinker

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I would also go with incite emotion, and take ritual if you want him working at a distance or throwing around more nebulous workings.

As far as mechanically, we had a thread earlier where we talked about the different ways to enthrall someone and I think we had a pretty comprehensive and cogent method. Really it depends on the duration of the enthrallment. If you want someone to do what you want for a few minutes then a maneuver (which one then invokes for effect/compels) gives one a simple aspect that would work for a bit before they shook it off. After that attacks (with ensuing consequences, which you would then invoke/compel as above) give a slightly longer term enthrallment, lasting as long as it takes them to recover from the consequence (obviously extreme consequences could last quite a long time). Finally if you want the thrall to last you can simply take them out, redefining them as your thrall forever.

Offline devonapple

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I was thinking about Rituals, too, but that would oblige this character to go about things like a Wizard: gathering links, finding obscure components, etc. That seems a little out of idiom for the character described.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Welcome back.

I'd probably go with Domination here. The other two powers have too much baggage, and besides they both give him capabilities beyond simple thrall-making. Allowing Domination to make fine thralls won't break anything.

Offline Belial666

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Incite Emotion only has baggage if you are a vampiric creature with it. I.e. if you also take Feeding Dependency / Emotional Vampire.


For -5 refresh, give him Incite Obedience, At Range, Lasting plus Domination. That way he can quickly enthrall people in non-permanent ways and command them without destroying their minds (unless he wants to) and in addition he can also Dominate people long-term and make permanent thralls with a bit of extra effort.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 09:04:42 PM by Belial666 »

Offline UmbraLux

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I'd go with Domination and possibly a stunt giving you a bonus on Presence maneuvers.  That would give the character both temporary influence (a Presence maneuver) and permanent domination.
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Personally, I'd go a Sponsored Magic route.  Example:

Grandaddy's Ring [-3]
Enthrallment Magic: You are able to draw upon magic which twists and commands the minds of others.  You are able to do rituals related to Psychomancy with evocation's methods and speed.  You gain +1 to the Complexity of such rituals.

I would model your thralls in different ways.  Short term thralls not completely dominated by you would be maneuvers to place aspects tagged for effect.  In combat, I'd treat dominating someone like a mental grapple where for every round you win you get to dictate the opponent's action.  Long term thralls would be taken out with ritual for each aspect changed (starting with High Concept becoming My Thrall of a Bartender, etc).


And no Law Talk please; since this is via an IoP, it is technically not a violation of the Laws, but I doubt the Wardens would see it that way, and that's how I'm going to run it.

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Offline MijRai

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I would go with Domination, and just add a bit of time to the process if you want to make them fine thralls.
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Offline bibliophile20

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Welcome back.

I'd probably go with Domination here. The other two powers have too much baggage, and besides they both give him capabilities beyond simple thrall-making. Allowing Domination to make fine thralls won't break anything.
Thanks.  It's good to be back.

As for the ring-IoP, my original thought for this guy is slightly more mature, more subtle version of Pavel Young of the Honorverse, if Pavel had gone into politics instead of the navy; distinct sociopathic tendencies (in the "I'm the only real person, everyone else are cardboard cutouts to play with and manipulate" sense), a member of an old, powerful family with extensive blackmail files, and thinks that the only appropriate place for an attractive woman is in his bed.  In this guy's case, he didn't have the humbling encounter that Pavel did with Honor Harrington, and did have a hereditary artifact that his family has been using to generate consent (both political and other) for generations.   (highly recommend the Honor Harrington series, btw; freely and legally available to read at the link).  

With that in mind, I needed something subtle, that could produce fine thralls, and Domination is specifically capable of neither by description, unless I just re-skin it as such, maybe like this:

Hypnos [-2]
Description: There is the blatant mental attacks of the Black Court, as direct and overpowering as a firehose and then there is the subtle workings of Hypnos.  Hypnos allows the user to make subtle adjustments to a victim's personality and general mental state that will often go unnoticed and unremarked unless activated or pushed against.
Skills affected: Discipline
Effects:
Psychic Manipulation: Given some time and appropriate measures--typically an hour or so of quiet social interaction, like a date, dinner or other similar period/situation--you may make a covert psychic attack against an unsuspecting or helpless target, dealing mental stress and consequences or setting up a mental maneuver until the degree of manipulation desired has been achieved.  The target can defend with Discipline, but cannot counter-attack, leaving them to eventually be worn down.  
Create Fine Thrall: Inflicting consequences and Taking Out a victim allows them to be finely enthralled; triggers and compulsions can be implanted, ranging from the subtle to the overt.

how's that look?

EDIT:
Clarification: By default, even if it is an IoP, if you go the Ritual route you are still using mortal magic (not sponsored magic) and thus still violating the Laws.  That being said, if you want to run it this way at your table, that's perfectly acceptable.  Just remember that a player taking evocation in a boom stick has the same argument when it comes to killing.  Sponsored magic is free of this restriction (usually).  Incite emotion and domination aren't magic and thus don't apply to the laws anyway.
Point.  Forgot about that.  I think what you posted with the Sponsored Magic was closer to what I originally had in mind anyway, so no worries.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 02:42:54 AM by bibliophile20 »
Tips for the Evil Henchman:
#12. If the seemingly helpless person you have just cornered is confident and unafraid despite being outnumbered and surrounded, you have encountered a Hero in disguise. Run while you still can.

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Offline devonapple

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How subtle does this enthrallment need to be?
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline bibliophile20

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How subtle does this enthrallment need to be?
Enough that a pair of mid-level (17-21 refresh) wizard NPCs who have lived in this city for the past century could have legitimately missed what was going on with this family  (admittedly, this isn't too terribly hard; one's a shut-in female ward expert who has a binding circle to babysit,
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; while the other is a African-American doctor, so they don't exactly move in the same social circles as the baddie).  

Or, for comparison's sake, if Molly's phobia insertions were done with a 8-gauge needle (in Harry's Sight metaphor), the markings (and comparative subtlety) from this guy are in the 20-30 gauge range.  I.e. it's perfectly legit for the coroner to overlook them when there's any other trauma.  
Tips for the Evil Henchman:
#12. If the seemingly helpless person you have just cornered is confident and unafraid despite being outnumbered and surrounded, you have encountered a Hero in disguise. Run while you still can.

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Offline Bruce Coulson

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Definitely Incite Emotion, with lasting.

Less likely to be noticeable, especially when the person who benefits already has high social skills.  If noticed, easily mistaken for White Court manipulation (and hence not Council business).  Combined with operating in entirely different social circles...

I hope you're planning on making him a bit more intelligent than Pavel; his father was the real brains of the family, clearly.
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Offline bibliophile20

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Definitely Incite Emotion, with lasting.

Less likely to be noticeable, especially when the person who benefits already has high social skills.  If noticed, easily mistaken for White Court manipulation (and hence not Council business).  Combined with operating in entirely different social circles...

I hope you're planning on making him a bit more intelligent than Pavel; his father was the real brains of the family, clearly.
Okay, after some thought, I think I'll go with the following setup:

Ring of Dominion [+1]
Incite Emotions [Greed, Lust, Fear, Lasting, -4]
Hypnos [-2]

Incite Emotions is used for short term thralldom and relatively coarse manipulation (appeals to the gonads, wallet or fight/flight), Hypnos is used for longer-term thralldom and implantation of more detailed programming and manipulations.  

Oh, and he'll be smarter than Pavel--this is not hard--but he'll be almost as petty and self-serving, I think.
Tips for the Evil Henchman:
#12. If the seemingly helpless person you have just cornered is confident and unafraid despite being outnumbered and surrounded, you have encountered a Hero in disguise. Run while you still can.

DFRPG Resources Wiki

Offline Tedronai

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 The target can defend with Discipline, but cannot counter-attack, leaving them to eventually be worn down.

I'm wary of the latter 2/3rds of this clause, as it would seem that those in-the-know, and with the means to do so, should not be shut down in such a way without so much as a roll to resist.  What happens when he, hypothetically, attempts to enthrall a Corpsetaker-esque psychomancer who happens to be fully aware of what he's attempting?
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