What Makes A Play-By-Post Game Last?

[Sanctaphrax]

Thanks all.

Looks like I was right to put the onus on the GM.

Maybe I'll write a brief summary of what's here. I think it could be useful.

By the way, how do people go about replacing players? It seems to be an inevitable part of any long-running game.

PS: I've never used a wiki for a game. I'll have to try it out sometime.

[crusher_bob]

Wiki's for games can really help.  It's tedious to dig through all the old posts to find something.

[Katarn]

Thanks all.

By the way, how do people go about replacing players? It seems to be an inevitable part of any long-running game.

PS: I've never used a wiki for a game. I'll have to try it out sometime.

In my case, I had about 8 applicants for my game.  I told the 3 who didn't make the first cut that if anyone would drop out, then would be in (2 of them took me up on it).  Other people approached me privately and asked to be in- those I chose I did based on reputation (is this person just going to drop out too?, etc.)  It's not too hard to incorporate new PCs depending on the story- the only thing I found got fouled up was inter-character aspects, though new interlopers makes for great intrigue and inter-PC social conflicts.

While it keeps a game going, I'm not sure if I recommend it- it does break continuity somewhat, but it can be the only way some games don't lose momentum.

Wiki's for games can really help.  It's tedious to dig through all the old posts to find something.

If you have a GM dedicated to this, it's much more efficient to recall seemingly minor details a player wants to exploit. 

[Rafaella]

I've been in Team8Mum's PBeM / play by post game for about 18 years now, all that time playing more or less the same character (Rafaella).
The thing about her game is that it feels more like writing a collective story, or group of stories. Sometimes we'll all take turns to write, sometimes if she's busy or there's something particular you want to chase... you just get on with it and as she says, it means no-one's really dependent on the GM or anyone else. It also means you end up taking a major role in creating the world, which I gather happens a lot in Dresden too.

[admiralducksauce]

Welcome Raefella!

I haven't run or played in a PbP here yet but I host a gaming forum at http://headonastick.com/forums/ (it's a small group and spambots hammer it so I keep registration closed except for direct requests) and have GMed a few long-running games.  I happen to have a job where I CAN muck around on the internets here and there, so my posting time is during work, when applications are compiling or at lunch and so on.  I have no posting time at home.  I use Google Docs to write up my GM-posts so if work intrudes, I don't have to remember to keep my posting window open because google saves my work for me.  If by some miracle I DO get posting time at home, I can load up the same post and continue working on it.  So having convenient tools at hand is important too.

Wiki's for games can really help.  It's tedious to dig through all the old posts to find something.

Hell yes.  I use a wiki for my game, and it makes keeping track of current FP a breeze as well as having a central repository for character sheets.

Most of my players keep in touch on google talk as well.  If I see someone online and their turn has come up, I’ll ping them and remind them.  I try not to be pushy; only after it’s clear the game is waiting on them and it’s been a day or so.  Gtalk is also really good for spot-handling FATE Point expenditure and Compels.

It's all about routine, convenience, and mitigating expectations.  To speak to that last point, I think for a while I expected to get the same experience from PbP as I do from tabletop.  Maybe that's what turns off some PbP players after a while, the disconnect between what they expected and the reality of a PbP game.

1.  There is no shared thrill of rolling the dice in a PbP.  No table banter, no immediacy.  Combat is affected most by this IMO.  I can sit at a tabletop game, say "I hit him with my axe", roll some dice, and still have a great time with my friends.  You take that into a PbP and there's no real choice for a player.  The GM might as well puppet the PCs for all the choice they have.  In a PbP the GM needs to make sure the players are making choices, not just reacting to skill rolls, and I think FATE works extremely well for this.  You have to set up each situation so the tension doesn’t come from “will I make this skill check”, but rather “which path do I want to take”?

2.  Expect players to put in less work than you as the GM.  It’s just how it is.  I’ve never had any luck with mysteries, unraveling conspiracies, or complex heist plans in PbP games.  OK, honestly, I’ve never really had luck with those in tabletop either.  The point is, PbP take a long time to get through and you shouldn’t expect your players to remember clues or NPCs from more than maybe a few weeks ago.  You can run a game with a richly detailed backstory and four tens of major NPCs, but you need to be prepared to handhold and remind the players as you go lest it become overwhelming.  It’s not that players are stupid, God no, it’s that we’re ALL lazy.  If it’s hard work to juggle all the game info, it’s going to decrease the incentive for players to engage with the game.

3.  Playstyle conflict.  Any pick-up PbP will have this, I think.  Somebody is going to join thinking it’s a game with X and find out it’s a game with Y and they’re going to lose interest.  There’s nothing to do for this except recognize it as early as possible so you can go your separate ways.

4.  Posting rates.  If the group can agree on a posting rate (more or less), that’ll help manage expectations as to the speed of the game, plus you can call out slow players on the agreement.

5.  Keep the game moving.  I believe this is termed “aggressive scene framing”.  Sure, I suppose there’s a use for loitering around in a scene and seeing if players will RP with each other.  IME that generally turns into “nothing’s happened in that game for 3 days, I’m going back to Call of Duty.”  Move your scenes like you were doing an episode of Law & Order.  As soon as someone makes the last witty comment in a scene, just move everyone to the next scene.  Keep giving your players something to do.  Work on a post until you can get it to the point where, in a tabletop game, you’d be asking “what do you want to do?”

6.  This is perhaps my personal hangups, but I don’t like to saddle players in tabletop OR PbP games with “helper” NPCs/GMPCs, unless those NPCs explicitly (say, due to military rank or something) are not involved in decision making.  It puts the onus on the players and (hopefully) keeps them engaged, keeps them from falling back on the NPCs.  The other thing you have to do, then, is to keep your OOC thread going.  Don’t be afraid to infodump OOC and get the players what they need to make a decision.

7.  I think what PbP does do well is immersion (as weird as that sounds).  You don’t have the table banter, the weeks or months between sessions.  The rate is slow but probably fairly constant, there is a clear IC and OOC split, and as GM you have ample time to plan the little details like NPC names, city details, and so on that might get joked-up or glossed over in a tabletop game.

[admiralducksauce]

I realized I misspoke in my previous post:

There is no shared thrill of rolling the dice in a PbP.  No table banter, no immediacy.  Combat is affected most by this IMO.

As weird as this may sound, I'd put "dialogue" up there with combat as something that needs a complete overhaul of expectations and that is so very different in a PbP.

Something as simple as RPing out a conversation can take DAYS if not longer if the players aren't posting quickly or their schedules don't mesh well.  What ends up happening is you end up with dueling monologues rather than normal conversation, which IMO is still vastly preferable to a normal-sounding conversation with 1-2 sentences posted every 3 days or so.  It's one of the things you just have to live with unless you are lucky enough to have players who can hash out a dialogue in AIM or google Wave or in a shared google doc or IRC or something.

[Katarn]

By post count alone, the 11 games that have 150+ posts are:
*Redemption through Transgression-Paris (ongoing)
*A Hard Rain Falls- Seattle
*Forced to Fight- Philadelphia (ongoing)
*Tampa (2 chapters)
*Enduring the Apocalypse (ongoing)
*Dresdenized Seoul Adventure
*Newbies are Lame (Los Angeles)
*Deceptive Heat (New York)
*Upstart (London)
*Las Vegas
*The Baltimore High Horror (ongoing; technically 148 posts but close enough)

There are a couple themes just by glancing at these games (aside from GM consistency):
*Intriguing Location- none of these games take place in a boring location- they are all either bustling cities or exotic locations.
*Intriguing Plothook- Several of these games are heavily plot-driven by a unique story you won't find in most other games (FtF, EtA, tBHH, and I like to think RtT).
*Senior (knowledgeable) members- these GMs have been around this site awhile, and know how the game works- and they've played several games, usually as a variety of classes.  Occasionally, we get a DnD buff who instantly jumps to GM a game- but hasn't played the system and doesn't translate it well.  Extensive knowledge of the system, such as found on this board, is a necessity.  As a junior member on this list, I still recognized all but 2 of these names.

An interesting thing to note those 11 games were run by 11 different GMs.

The best thing to do is TALK to those GMs specifically and try to get them to post in this thread (also get Mij on here as well):
Katarn, luminos, ZMiles, cgodfrey7 (also MijRai & Buscadera), Sanctaphrax, Bosh, Archmage_Cowl, Llayne, Vash the White, Cullen, Belial666
(strikethrough GMs have already posted)

[Sanctaphrax]

I've already messaged Mij. I'll contact the rest of that list in a moment.

So, do the following points seem like a good summary of this thread so far?

How To Make A Good Play-By-Post Game

1. Get a good GM. This is all-important.
2. Have realistic expectations. There are some things that PbP doesn't do well. Also, players will probably drop.
3. Keep moving. Games are like sharks: they die if they stop.
4. Run a good game. If it's a problem in real life (playstyle conflict, railroading, etc) it'll probably be a problem in PbP.

[Llayne]

I kind of did chime in earlier.

I'd add posting rate to the list. I'd personally say the faster the better, but that's just because I like things to move along.

More importantly the posting rate should be about the same for the whole group, that way one player isn't holding up 3  players and the entire game. This should be discussed during the recruitment phase so everybody knows what the expectations are along with the 'wait time' that is allowed before the GM will skip or NPC a character for that 'round.'

[Belial666]

I agree with many things already said here so I will go on with specifics in some cases rather than repeat what others said;



1) In recruitment phase, keep in mind which potential players made quality and/or long character posts. Those are more invested in their characters and tend to post more.
2) In recruitment phase, see who is making the more questions and suggestions, and generally being active. Those guys tend to be active IC too.
3) In set-up phase, never bog down the players with too much preparation (i.e. guest stars/ city creation). If it's taking too long, drop it and let them discover both the campaign and their characters through action.
4) In the set-up phase, don't worry about every minor detail. If your PCs are mostly done, have them start the game; they can fix minor stuff as they go.
5) Start the game with a strong scene that allows every character to participate but also gives them a plot hook to follow - but don't railroad. Players will follow a good plot hook but will (if subconsciously) balk on a railroad.
6) Combat should be the second or third scene, after characters had chances to interact. It should be difficult so that everyone has to participate to win and so that also everyone can show off their "cool stuff" to everyone else. It also reveals which players are going to have problems with combat, if any.
7) The "delay" action in combat solves many efficiency problems. Enemies should delay and act together so they can coordinate actions in a single initiative slot. The PCs will see it works, so they will do it themselves and thus bond as a group in combat via cooperation. In addition, by taking a single initiative slot, no player has to wait for others to post unless they specifically want to combine actions. Thus posting time per round is reduced to half, making combat TWICE as fast.
What applies to combat can also apply to social interaction. People take turns talking and socializing only in court and official gatherings; most times they act by grouping together because it's more effective. Also, it is faster in PbP, which is good.
9) Set a limit to how much you'll wait for players to post and stick to it. If they don't, assume they are indecisive, shell-shocked, surprised or thinking IC. NPC them ONLY if the player has notified she/he will be unable to post; if the player knows their PC will do stuff no matter what, they may forget to post or follow the game or notify for absences (which is annoying)
10) Things happen in the game world despite the players action... or inaction. Make sure the players know that - by making them lose sometimes due to indecision or inaction. If you make the cute student NPC die when PCs are slow to hunt the vampire (as would happen IRL) you can bet they'll be more interested in the future (and guilty - whatever works, you know?)

[admiralducksauce]

The "delay" action in combat solves many efficiency problems. Enemies should delay and act together so they can coordinate actions in a single initiative slot. The PCs will see it works, so they will do it themselves and thus bond as a group in combat via cooperation. In addition, by taking a single initiative slot, no player has to wait for others to post unless they specifically want to combine actions. Thus posting time per round is reduced to half, making combat TWICE as fast.

This is brilliant and I am yoinking the crap out of this.

And generally yes, I agree with Sanctaphrax's summary a few posts above.

[Fyrchick]

I have played the PbP game-and ran into all the problems listed. The frustrating thing was getting to the middle of the action and having people disappear. Also, any issues or questions that came up had delayed gratification. I was very wary of getting involved in another online game.

The San Francisco game (Shaking the Foundations) has been going just under a year now. Although it is PbChat, we have lost only one player- and he went to boot camp.

For anyone unfamiliar with us, we run the game itself in another chatroom that has an archive, so all games are saved to our mediafire archive site (MIJ!), so it is sort of a cross PbChat/Post style game. If you miss a session you can catch up. Most games run between 2-4 hours IN THE CHAT.  During the game we use the forum chat to roll and talk about the game and anything else just like we would sitting at a table. Real-time discussion and problem resolution is awesome.
What has really made it work FOR ME is:

1) A LOT of pre-game city and character creation. We set a couple weeks to do it officially, but for those people working on phase 5, they would "talk amongst themselves" and get the character sheet to Mij. The city creation process has really driven a lot of the game in a fun way.  (The city write up is in process to be offered to the 'public'. When you see it, you'll understand!)

2) The GM. Mij is crazy organized and he lets our characters go as we play them. He is good about directing game-relevant chat back to the game window. The story goes where the characters do-but somehow we manage to be nudged in the right direction... (must ponder this)

3) Starting power level. We started chest deep. This gave our characters some excellent abilities, but nothing over-the-top. I think it has made us PLAY the characters, rather than running them (if that makes sense)- nothing is taken for granted. FATE is more of a story based game, not a character one. The characters really need to have the creation process to tie them together. It makes a HUGE difference. And as they become familiar it is fun just to watch the game.

4) Having set times. This is good and bad- but it makes it MUCH easier to plan for. The downside is that since the chat is slower than face to face (and sometimes PbP) a scene takes a while to finish, so you might not get in for a couple play nights. For those who are really busy, you can play and not miss much or hold other players up for a long time in game time.

5) Not too many players.
6) the GM.
7) the GM
8 ) players.
9) A good game system. like FATE.
10) cool forums to talk about the games

The only real complaint I have is that the game doesn't move fast enough for me, and we have players in 3 time zones. But that is to be expected... its a cross we must bear.

I'm sure Mij can add more insight.

[Arcteryx]

Well done folks, this thread is gold. PURE GOLD.

[Sanctaphrax]

Thanks, all. As Arcteryx said, this is good stuff.

Second-hand accounts make Mij sound like some kind of superman. I really hope he shows up here sometime.

Got a PM from Cullen, talking about how his game went. He had two main points:

1. Keep the momentum up.
2. Make sure the players have a clear goal at all times.

Think I might add a point to the summary about making sure that you start off on the right foot. But I'm not sure exactly what the right foot is.

In other news, EtA just adopted Belial's suggestion. It seems to be working quite well.

[wednesdayboy]

I've run a lot of PBeM and play by post games over the years, the one things I have always avoided was any hint of game mechanics -
The most successful and long running ones have all had one critical aspect in common;
They have all revolved around people tell their characters stories in the style and pace they want, with other people's players turning up as 'bit parts' in the other persons plot and only with permission. (In many ways they are more 'MUSHes' than 'games')
However this way if a player drops out it does not strand others mid game. In fact 2 of these games have carried on without the ref for long periods of time when my  real life got in the way and I didn't have time to supervise/ write anything.

I agree wholeheartedly.  I've played in three PBeMs that have lasted years and I think one of the biggest aids is that there are no mechanics involved.  By having it purely narrative, scenes that could get bogged down by mechanics stay lively and fresh throughout the scene.

I'll also echo the sentiments that the GM has to be invested because without them there is no game.

And one way the longest running one of our has lasted is by not being afraid to resurrect it.  We've have two or three long breaks (primarily because the GM has gotten too busy) but eventually when schedules have settled down we're willing to give it another go.