Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites

[Watson]

In Blood Rites, Harry wants to get the magic of one of his enemies “locked down”, and I am thinking about how he would go about doing that by using the rules. I assume that it is Thaumaturgy, and that the strength/complexity of the ritual acts like a block against magic. Complexity is based on the strength of the block, the area covered (+2 per zone?) and the duration.

If so, would it negate all magic inside the area (unless the power of the spell cast is equal or higher than the block strength? Would it be possible to target only one individual and block just that person’s magic (given a proper symbolic link) within the area? Would it even be possible to create an effect so that the magic of the target would be blocked regardless of if he or she moves away? In that case, it seems like a bit too powerful, given that a Wizard with Discipline 5+ can cast very high Complexity rituals with little or no real risk of failure.

[devonapple]

I think I recall that Harry's effect was targeting the enemy spellcaster directly, through line of sight or a sympathetic link, and wasn't bound to a location. It *may* have even been Evocation, albeit a very strong one with a bolstered duration.

[MijRai]

I'd say yes to most of those. Privded you have a target zone or a link to the living target, you should be able to do so. You still have to put shifts to duration as well though. And Discipline is for control, you want Lore and Conviction for Complexity. You'd have to set the block at a level at a few shifts over the defender's level, and throw in the zone cost or link requirement.

It isn't overpowered, since it is a wizard negating a wizard, and if the guy who did it went in the zone he affected, he couldn't cast a spell either unless he hadded even more shifts to get himself around it.

Devonapple, Harry never did anything to block magic like that in Blood Rites (besides the re-route lines). Ebenezar was in charge of that part, and we don't know exactly what he did. Since Mavra got away unharmed as far as we can tell, it didn't work well either.

[Haru]

Yes, it would be a simple block against magic. Standard duration for thaumaturgy would be 1 scene, which should be all you need anyway.

If you put the block on a person, yes he is going to be affected even if he moves. You wouldn't need to cover an area, if the target is a person. Best thing to avoid this: don't leave symbolic links around.

Covering an area would be possible, but I think getting a symbolic link for that specific area could be difficult in some places.

If you want, you could let the target make a lore roll to see if he detects the magic about to be thrown at him. Harry seems to be able to sense the curse coming in in BR, so it should be possible for others as well. You could do it as a race between lore of the target and the shifts already put into the spell, though the caster should have a headstart of at least one exchange. Or you could simply take the casters discipline - the shifts gathered this exchange, so the faster you draw the power, the more likely someone is to notice it, which would make sense (at least to me).

@devonapple
Didn't he have Ebenezar outside to shut her down? He would most certainly have used thaumaturgy there. And if not, in Grave Peril Harry did something with thaumaturgy to Kravos (Or else he wouldn't have needed that hair and the doll).

[devonapple]

in Grave Peril Harry did something with thaumaturgy to Kravos (Or else he wouldn't have needed that hair and the doll).

That is what I was remembering. My mistake.

Although the symapthetic link makes a strong case for Thaumaturgy, those Aspects ("Hair of Kravos" and "Doll of Kravos") could still be used in an Evocation, for the control roll if nothing else.

[Haru]

That is what I was remembering. My mistake.

Although the symapthetic link makes a strong case for Thaumaturgy, those Aspects ("Hair of Kravos" and "Doll of Kravos") could still be used in an Evocation, for the control roll if nothing else.

True, but it would be stupid, since he had all the time in the world (or at least enough) to do the ritual. If Kravos had surprised them, he could have used them to boost an evocation, of course. Though in a straight up fight I think he would have preferred his shield bracelet.

[Belial666]

First of all, you don't target an area or a person. You target the building they are in with a Ward vs magic.

Secondly, a good enough photo is a sympathetic link to a building. But since Ebenezar was right there, he has no problem walking up to the building and touching it or, if he had to do it by distance, taking a few chips of the wall for a link.

Third, in order to differentiate between Harry's magic and Mavra's magic in the Ward, you do one of two things; you give Harry permission through your ward so it does not inhibit him or you make a Ward specific against black magic. Not being alive, vampires automatically use the same source of power as Necromancy.

[Becq]

A ward is a threshold.  It would inhibit magic crossing the threshold, but would do nothing against two people slinging spells at each other entirely within the ward.

[Belial666]

Actually, thresholds diminish the power of magic inside the entire building, not something crossing from the outside to the inside. So if a Ward works like a threshold, it does exactly that; reduce powers of those people not invited.

[Haru]

I don't think a homeless shelter invaded by Black Court Vampires would have enough of a threshhold left to keep out anything, so a ward might not be doable in that situation. For a short term ward, which I would call a block if it doesn't last at least a few days, it should still work like this.

[Becq]

Actually, thresholds diminish the power of magic inside the entire building, not something crossing from the outside to the inside. So if a Ward works like a threshold, it does exactly that; reduce powers of those people not invited.

I'm not sure where you're getting that.  Every reference I found refered to crossing, not being within.  A few examples from the section on thresholds (YS230):

"the word threshold is used to describe the barrier that is formed around a home"
"In the broadest sense, the term “threshold” may be given to any metaphysical barrier that impedes or blocks supernatural power from passing from point A to point B." <-- (This basic definition seems extremely clear)
"Some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold [...] If they cross a threshold without counteracting it"
"when an entity crosses a threshold"
"crossing a threshold doesn’t make the wizard melt"
"a wizard crossing a threshold uninvited leaves a large amount of his supernatural power"
"Even a spell that tries to cross a threshold may be diminished."
"Many spell effects and some supernatural abilities will erode or completely disappear if they are carried across a threshold"
"such entities are particularly vulnerable to crossing thresholds. They may actually take damage from crossing one"

Please direct me to any place in the rules where it states anything about what effect a ward might have on anything already inside?  The only related reference I could find is the protective wards used when summoning, which keep the demon from escaping but otherwise have no impact on them.

[zenten]

"a wizard crossing a threshold uninvited leaves a large amount of his supernatural power"

Right there.  You cross a threshold, and all your magic is blocked by the threshold, even if you cast it while inside it.

[devonapple]

Right there.  You cross a threshold, and all your magic is blocked by the threshold, even if you cast it while inside it.

Yes, the strength of the Threshold acts as a persistent Block on all non-permitted (uninvited) magical effects.

[Tedronai]

Except that Mavra was already INSIDE this hypothetical ward, and thus never would have had to cross it, and never would have had to leave any of her power behind.
Beyond that, a Ward is not a Threshold.

[Becq]

Right there.  You cross a threshold, and all your magic is blocked by the threshold, even if you cast it while inside it.

Right.  But the suppression is triggered by crossing the threshold, not simply by being in it.  The act of crossing the threshold has an effect that persists.  This is very much the equivalent of a bouncer requiring a guy with a gun to leave it at the door as he enters.  Until he gets the gun back on his way out, the benefit of owning that gun is going to be 'suppressed'.  If, on the other hand, the guy was already inside with the gun before the bouncer showed up, then the bouncer being there has no impact on him or his gun.

Another analogy would be a castle moat.  If you try to cross the moat when the drawbridge is up, you might get dragged under by the weight of your armor.  If you make it across, you are likely to be tired from your exersion.  If you were carrying a musket, it might well be useless until the powder dries out.  But if you'd snuck across the drawbridge the day before the battle when it was still down, then the presence of the moat is going to have zero impact on your musket.

Yes, the strength of the Threshold acts as a persistent Block on all non-permitted (uninvited) magical effects.

But only those that *crossed* the threshold.

Perhaps someone with a better memory or the books handy could confirm this: didn't Dresden, while discussing the subject, indicate that the loss of magic lasted for some extended period of time, reqardless of what the Wizard did thereafter?  I think it was when Murphy was concerned about Dresden being impersonated by a spirit, and Dresden stepped into her house without invitation to prove he was human, knowing that the loss of magic would leave him vulnerable even after he'd left the house?