Enchanted Items Assistance

[Belial666]

I have it on good authority that a focused evoker can get weapon 14 control 14 attacks at that level. They might be a bit short on defenses though.

[InFerrumVeritas]

It's not that bad.  An evocator would have to pay 7 points of refresh in refinement to get to +5, +4 in thier main element.  And they'd also want to dump enough points into enchanted items so that they could gen enchanted item defenses as well.

So our ecocator would be looking at something like control 10, power 9 evocations, with power 10 stacked enchanted item defenses (and be out of points around there).

So he can expect to do around 4+ stress to you through your stacked defenses and you can't do much to him in return, since he'll also have power 10 or so defenses.

A physical combatant can afford supernatural everything
So they are looking at something like targeting 5, defense 7, weapon 6, armor 2, 8 stress boxes.  He can't penetrate the enchanted item defense, and suffers stress 10+ hits every time the evocator attacks.

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But the system really starts breaking down here, especially with the high to hit bonus plus high weapon value of evocation

Lawbreaker helps you get there faster.  A lot faster.  Of course, I wouldn't see what lawbreaker is capable of as a balancing point as there are significant story and plot drawbacks.

[Michael Sandy]

Question, does the fact that there are only 5 elements mean that the maximum refinement bonus you can have is +5?

Looking through the Our World supplement, even High Council wizards rarely have more than +3.

And technically it would be 8 refresh to get to +5, as you would need to buy two more elements of magic from your starting 3.

[Samael]

1) Assuming you do not raise the minimum cap yes, not counting focus items or lawbreakers.

2) The Senior Council Members are highly underpowered in Our World, by all accounts they are realistically in the mid thirties to early forties refresh wise.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Because they have to follow the stack, yes, +5.  However, focus items could do quite a lot (there's no limit, only how much power you can stack up).

Granted, that +5 ends up costing quite a bit of refresh: -7

15 points of refresh leads to +5 to power and +5 to control in one element.  Add that to a potential Superb in both Discipline and Conviction (requiring 45 skill points).  That gives you 10 power, 10 control.  

Now, breaking things down a bit more:
Basic Wizard template is -7.  That gives you four focus items and one point of specialization (for evocation, which is what I'm working with).
-15 points of refresh gives you 30 points of specialization.  You only need 29 to max out specializations, so Billy says it's cool to have the last specialization grant one focus item and one point of specialization.

Now you're looking at Superb Discipline +5 offensive spirit control, +5 Spirit Control with Superb Conviction +5 Spirit power.

That gives you 15 offensive control, 10 defensive control, 10 power.  At -22 refresh.  With IoP shenanigans you look at -20.

I'd probably call anything approaching this at -10 refresh powergaming.  Not necessarily bad (as you are sacrificing a lot of the side benefits that this character has, but still powergaming).  As a GM, I'd probably question the character.

Lawbreaker gets you there much faster.  Sponsored magic can get you there even faster.  I imagine that many of the Senior Council might have sponsored magic of some sort (more like Kemmerlerian Necro than actual sponsored magic, granting "extra" specialization).  

Also, they likely have stunts/powers that do things like allow faster casting of rituals (Turn Coat), other powers (Joe's shapeshifting/Blackstaff/Gatekeeper have all shown this).  Possibly even longer endurance when casting spells (extra mental consequences?).  It may even be possible to have the ability to cast multiple spells (Archive).  I'd probably say that at one point, it becomes less of a numbers game and more of a tactics game.

[Belial666]

Evocation bonuses of +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, with the last being +5 control, +4 power for your element of choice cost -7 refresh. (counting free spec). Focus bonuses of +5 offense power, +5 offense control for your element of choice cost -3 refresh. (counting free focus slots). The wizard template costs -7 refresh. The sorceror template costs -6 refresh. Plain Evocation costs -3 refresh.
So, absolute minimum for +14 power, +15 control offense, +9 power, +10 control defense is -13 refresh without any Items of Power or Lawbreaker or Sponsored stuff.
Minimum for the base Sorceror template for the same is -16 refresh and for the wizard template -17 refresh.


That is significantly lower than -22. Add Item of Power and you reduce those to -11, -14 and -15 refresh respectively.

[Samael]

@ Belial

1) Love your latest post in EtA, its inspired and made me laugh a good bit. I am going to find something suitable to siggy from it.

2) Any ideas for some particularly nasty enchanted items, that would fit the character concept? I am more or less having writers block on this.

[Belial666]

Eye of Providence: A gold triangle set with three gems; a shapphire, a ruby and a diamond. The ruby magnifies your senses so you can see even insignificant details of a scene and how they can be used to your advantage. (spend charge to make 2 perception-based declarations at +5). The shapphire provides you with defensive precognition, giving you the temporary aspects "forewarning", "foreknowledge", "forethought". (defensive item - spend charge for 3 taggable aspects vs a single attack/maneuver). The diamond gives you clarity of vision allowing you to see things as they are. (spend charge for supernatural perception of 10, potentially revealing info about supernatural forces or breaking through veils)

Mantle of Thought's Speed: A cloak that appears to be a sheet of silver from the inside, a sheet of gold from the outside, both woven out of impossibly fine thread. The silver sheet enables you short-duration flight by manipulating air currents. (spend charge to get sprint 7 for 4 exchanges. You can choose to fly but must then roll athletics to control the flight). The golden sheet enables short-range teleportation at a moment's notice like an escape potion. (defensive item - spend a charge to move up to 10 zones, ignoring most barriers. Roll Lore to control the destination.)

Rod of Dominion: Three thin rods twisted around eachother like serpents; one of inherited silver, one of meteoric iron, one of pure gold. The silver can set a Ward on a circle, provided you use the Rod to make the circle (supplemental to make circle, full action to spend a charge to Ward). The iron one can set a Binding around part of a zone, provided you run a full circle around the area. (supplemental to make circle, full action to spend a charge to Bind). The gold can be used to banish demons and supernatural entities. (spend charge to make 10-shift spiritual attack vs non-mortal. Takeout is Banishment)

[crusher_bob]

Question, does the fact that there are only 5 elements mean that the maximum refinement bonus you can have is +5?

The max specialization bonus, along with the max bonus you can get from a foci, is limited by your lore.  So if you have a superb lore, you can get +5 from specialization and +5 from a focus item.

barring certain Tower of Hanoi issues, you can get to +5/+4 refinement in your element of choice without ever needs to get more than 3 elements. 

A sample:
Evocation (Spirit, Air, Fire)
Spirit Control +5, Spirit power +4, Air control +3, Air power +2, Fire control +1

The refinement to get you there is 7 points.

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The refinement to get you to a +5/+5 balanced bonus would require around 15 points of refresh, and you need to have all five elements as well, so closer to 17 points of refresh.

but
You can get to +6/+5 for only 10 refresh, and you still don't need any but your base 3 elements.

[Becq]

Just as an aside, there are more than five potential elements (even assuming you limit yourself to the default western tradition elements).  In addition to the basic five, each Sponsored Magic power source counts as an additional element, so there's also Hellfire, Winter, Summer, etc, for those with the Refresh to play around a bit.

[Michael Sandy]

There do seem to be more balance problems at high levels of refresh.  One thing that is kind of interesting is that it seems to be easier to boost defense rolls than attack rolls for someone using magic items.

The above character would have a ton of 10 shift attacks... that attack at 5 discipline.

Considering the environment would have characters with 5 athletics + Mythic speed (defense , persistent blocks in the 8-10 range.  And a 'modest' amount of evocation specialization +3 power, +4 control, for 5 refresh or so and some focus items would yield rote block and attacks in that range.  But the evoker would have 8 or 9 control to go with their 8 or 9 attacks.  The evoker might have less brute power, but they are more likely to hit.

At really high levels of refresh, physical combatants need to find a way to spend refresh to boost their hit chance.  True Aim and similar stunts.

Of course, Greater Glamoured stealth and super speed could sub for that.  A complete surprise attack and you might have no defense at all.

Unfortunately, once you get into hit and run tactics involving super speed, you need a larger battlemap.  Instead of just having 4 or so zones for the encounter, you need to sketch out everything a speedster could get to in one exchange as a free action.

[Samael]

Here are the different items I am going to be making for my game, they noticably all have a Greek theme, and if you can guess at what some of them do I will give you a cookie.

Gauntlets of Nemesis
Satchel of Hephestus
Veil of Eris
Rod of Hecate
Twin Blades of Kratos and Via
Brooch of Athena
Bracer of Atlas
Shield Ring of Medusa
Flute of Pan
Chain of Hades
Gauntlet of Ares