Glamour Power

[zenten]

Only the first time though.  The fifth time you're attacked by someone invisible it's hardly going to come as a shock.

[ways and means]

I would debate how well anyone could defend themselves against someone they couldn't percieve, I will waive my sword about perhaps I will get lucky.

[Becq]

An alternate way of looking at Veils is that they are a magical substitue for a stealth that gains the benefit of "Solve Improbable or Impossible Problems".  In other words, someone standing in the middle of a brightly lit and empty courtyard probably couldn't hide with mundane Stealth, but could with a Veil.  However, it's still a stealth substitute, and only lasts as long as you are making a reasonable effort to be "stealthy" within the context of the magic.  So it would continue to work if you carefully walked across a stage in front of a auditorium full of people, but it would stop working if you stopped in the middle of the stage to belt out a few verses of "I'm a Little Teapot".  It would continue to work as you maneuvered "Right behind my victim" and "Readied a devastating blow", but would be cancelled once you actually attacked.  You could probably even use it to vanish from right in front of someone in combat, assuming the contested roll succeeded, because the Veil "Solve(s) Improbable or Impossible Problems".

Yes, I realize that the RAW describes Veils as a block to perception.  But I think the above conceptualization works better.  Note that examples of skinwalkers having Veils that are much more powerful than this falls under the realm of Plot Device.  (Or perhaps it's really a powerful "defensive block" with a special effect?)

Edit: apparently I accidentally struck out the latter part of my post.  Fixed.

[Silverblaze]

I would debate how well anyone could defend themselves against someone they couldn't percieve, I will waive my sword about perhaps I will get lucky.

Two Words:  Daredevil (okay thats one word, but you get the idea...rely on other senses)


also

Its a game.

its doable in every other system.  Why not this one?

[Richard_Chilton]

I can see "I'm using glamour to stand twenty away and shoot you with a silenced gun" working better than "I'm using glamour as I grapple you".

If you can't see or hear me and I can shoot, take a few steps, shoot again, etc then that's an attack that's almost impossible to defend against.

Richard

[ways and means]

I really like Becq idea.

Two Words:  Daredevil (okay thats one word, but you get the idea...rely on other senses)


also

Its a game.

its doable in every other system.  Why not this one?

I am not certain but I think veils like most fairy illusions are more than just visual.

[Silverblaze]

I can see "I'm using glamour to stand twenty away and shoot you with a silenced gun" working better than "I'm using glamour as I grapple you".

If you can't see or hear me and I can shoot, take a few steps, shoot again, etc then that's an attack that's almost impossible to defend against.

Richard

Grabbing at straws for that one....3rd ed DnD "tremorsense"?  Uh...spatial awareness?...constant mind probing all sentient beings nearby....?  Thats all I got.

[Silverblaze]

I really like Becq idea.

I am not certain but I think veils like most fairy illusions are more than just visual.

echolocation should still work things should boucne back from their mass yes?

Thats about all I got for that response.

[Richard_Chilton]

Don't grab for threads - use The Sight.  It sees what's what - and imprints the image on your mind forever as it tries to deal mental stress.

For someone without the sight, run and hope you make it behind cover.

The sickness of Glamour is one of the reasons the rules as written restrict who can have them.  Most people ignore that you have to be a faery or a changeling to get them, but that's what the rules as written say.

Richard

[ways and means]

Uhm I had to be all raw on you but the pure fae of considerable power is a must only of greater glamours, glamours itself has no musts so as long as you have a plausible reason to have it (fairy artifact, blessing of a fairy god mother, funny and potentially painful relationship with a high sidhe etc).

[Becq]

Regarding hearing, tremorsense, echolocation, etc:  While such things work well against D&D-style Invisibility (which basically works against visual perception only), it wouldn't work against Dresdenverse-style Veils (which work against perception in general, including forms of perception which aren't visual).  This is not to say that there aren't forms of perception that *do* pierce veils (or that pierce them more easily than normal senses), but this is probably best handled by Declarations.  For example, you might Declare that a particular Veil is weak to a particular non-standard detection method, and if that Declaration was accepted then it would be true.

[Silverblaze]

Regarding hearing, tremorsense, echolocation, etc:  While such things work well against D&D-style Invisibility (which basically works against visual perception only), it wouldn't work against Dresdenverse-style Veils (which work against perception in general, including forms of perception which aren't visual).  This is not to say that there aren't forms of perception that *do* pierce veils (or that pierce them more easily than normal senses), but this is probably best handled by Declarations.  For example, you might Declare that a particular Veil is weak to a particular non-standard detection method, and if that Declaration was accepted then it would be true.

Veils stop the ground from shaking and sonic vibrations pass through them?  Butcher/Dresden Files RPG say magic is based in physics.  I thinks I found a loop hole.

[Becq]

I'll give you a choice of two possible answers:

1) Not at all.  What veils do, however, is stop observers from noticing such things.  (This is probably true for some types of veils.)

2) Yes they do.  In the same way that veils bend light (which is physically possible, though not to the extent possible with Dresdenverse magic -- see real-life applications such as prisms and mirages) they also muffle the vibrations caused by footsteps, bend or eliminate energy (such as sound waves used in hearing and echolocation), etc.

Note, by the way, that the effects above are not absolute: short of a infinitely strong veil, there will be traces left behind that a character with sufficiently powerful senses can detect.  Ie, someone who rolls over the strength of the veil penetrates it.  Just not automatically, as with D&D tremorsense.

[zenten]

People can't dodge bullets.  They run around with their athletics in a pattern that makes them harder to hit.  Not knowing where the attack is coming from makes that athletic roll harder, but not impossible.

[BumblingBear]

People can't dodge bullets.  They run around with their athletics in a pattern that makes them harder to hit.  Not knowing where the attack is coming from makes that athletic roll harder, but not impossible.

People with supernatural/mythic strength most certainly can dodge bullets.

If you can run as fast as a moving car, it's not that hard to just move a few few over every half a second.