Does Sleep Magic Break Any Laws of Magic?

[InFerrumVeritas]

What it says on the tin.

I don't think so, but it's probably a gray area.  I'm just curious what others think though.

[Bruce Coulson]

Harry specifically states that putting someone to sleep is allowed.

In game mechanics, "Sleep" is a Taken Out result when imposed.

From a Law standing, putting someone to sleep is equivalent to restraining them.  You aren't reading their mind, you aren't manipulating their thoughts, you aren't transforming them, and you aren't killing them.  I suspect the reason wizards don't do this very often is that it's more difficult to do quickly than other methods of restraint.  Wardens carry swords to use against resisters, as well as manacles.  Sleeping them would be allowed, but it's extra effort to get the same result.

Now, entering people's dreams would definitely be a violation, as well as trying to manipulate those dreams.

[ways and means]

I am not sure that entering a persons dreams would be breaking the laws that is entirely subjective on the dreamscape, if all dreams are conected (the collective sub-consious) then navigating them shouldn't be lore breaking as long as you don't break throught he front door.

[Haru]

Putting someone to sleep would be a taken out result, I agree. Mostly though, I think, if your goal is to put a sleeping aspect on a target, a ritual or a potion would be better suited. Or you do it like Harry, to a willing target, which, I would assume, would not break the law (see below).

As for entering someone else's dream, it should be possible. Remember the nightmare, he waited until Malone was asleep and had created his own dreamspace in the nevernever to attack, because only then was he able to get to him: through the nevernever. A wizard should be able to locate the dreamspace of someone else and enter it. What he does if he is in there is a whole different story.

And on a side note:
What about if someone invites a wizard to change something inside his mind? Like hiring an interior designer, the designer is only the one doing the work, all the decisions come from the person himself. The same thing for transforming the body of someone, would it be allowed if it is done with the targets consent?

[devonapple]

if all dreams are conected (the collective sub-consious) then navigating them shouldn't be lore breaking as long as you don't break through the front door.

Ah, the Jungian collective subconscious.

If you want to establish a Jungian model for the dreamscape of a DV game, that's certainly possible, but an honest-to-goodness Jungian model in a DresdenVerse setting would be clogged with supernatural abusers.

One could theoretically establish that something similar to the Outer Gates was guarding the realms of Dream from such predators, but then there would likely be self-appointed or summoned watchmen roaming Dream, and they may have their own rules about people meddling in their realm.

It could certainly add a wonderful "Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath" element to the setting though, but that's really delving into Lovecraftian cosmology and the horrors of self-knowledge, and straying from the core DresdenVerse quality of supernatural ass-kicking in the mortal realm.

As for entering someone else's dream, it should be possible. Remember the nightmare, he waited until Malone was asleep and had created his own dreamspace in the nevernever to attack, because only then was he able to get to him: through the nevernever. A wizard should be able to locate the dreamspace of someone else and enter it. What he does if he is in there is a whole different story.

And on a side note:
What about if someone invites a wizard to change something inside his mind? Like hiring an interior designer, the designer is only the one doing the work, all the decisions come from the person himself. The same thing for transforming the body of someone, would it be allowed if it is done with the targets consent?

Edit: I think/hope the Nevernever element of dreaming is considered making one's own temporary Demesne, rather than opening up to the Nevernever in its entirety.

As for the side note, I recall that having a voluntary subject does not really excuse oneself from the Lawbreaking element of things, though circumstances always inform such decisions.

[Bruce Coulson]

If a table allows for a collective Dreaming (or collective Unconsciousness), getting there while conscious should be difficult...and interpreting what you find in a dream to be VERY difficult, and requiring Scholarship and Investigation.

(My image was for a tall, pale, black haired man dressed in shifting garb, quietly inquiring as to what business you might have in His Realm...)

As for allowing someone to 'take charge' for a bit...

Hmmm.  That's a VERY grey area, at best.  The Council might very well rule that a mundane CAN'T give reasoned consent to such an act, any more than a minor can agree to certain acts, because the mundane simply can't understand what they are asking for, or agreeing to.

Personally, I might allow transformation, simply because it fits many stories and legends, and because free will isn't being affected (if the target consents to or wants such a transformation).  There might be a great story hook in it as well; what if the target deceives the wizard and uses their new form to murder some people?  Now, the wizard is being accused of being a Lawbreaker, both 1st and Fourth!  "I didn't want to do it; some strange compulsion drove me to kill that guy!"  The group must try and prove the wizard's innocence, and the 'victim's' guilt, before the Wardens take action...

[Haru]

Edit: I think/hope the Nevernever element of dreaming is considered making one's own temporary Demesne, rather than opening up to the Nevernever in its entirety.

It kind of is both, I think. You create your own temporary demesne, but it is part of the nevernever. Not every dream creates a temporary demesne, not even very much of them, but very intense dreams or in an area, where the walls between the worlds are thin, it is possible. It is just another way of entering a dream, and I would say a much less invasive one than directly trying to get in there. And like I said, if you mess around in there, you are going to be lawbreaking. It could, however, be a way to communicate if you have some sort of sleeping beauty story. But just like in Inception, I would have the dreamworld attack the intruder after a while, even if he is friendly, and even if the resident is ok with him being there.

Personally, I might allow transformation, simply because it fits many stories and legends, and because free will isn't being affected (if the target consents to or wants such a transformation).  There might be a great story hook in it as well; what if the target deceives the wizard and uses their new form to murder some people?  Now, the wizard is being accused of being a Lawbreaker, both 1st and Fourth!  "I didn't want to do it; some strange compulsion drove me to kill that guy!"  The group must try and prove the wizard's innocence, and the 'victim's' guilt, before the Wardens take action...

I like that idea

[Hal]

From a more "mechanical" perspective:

I had a player who wanted to do the same thing.  Except, as he envisioned it, a sleep spell would cause mental stress, with "taken out" being falling asleep.  As far as I was concerned, a spell that deals mental stress (to its target) violates the laws of magic.  The examples in the book show sleep spells as applied to a willing target, with the point of creating dreamless sleep.  While intent is generally not important when it comes to breaking the laws, I think the actual effect in this case is different enough to make it different circumstances.

[Becq]

My take:

What Law would putting someone to sleep break?  It does not cause death.  It does not transform the target (or if you want to play semantics, it doesn't transform the target into something incompatable to their normal self, either physically or mentally, though one might argue that a *permanent* coma might cross the line).  You are not entering their mind.  You are not gaining control over their thought processes.  There are no necromantic, temporal, or outsider issues.

TL;DR: I think a spell that inflicts sleep is fine from a Lawbreaker perspective, unless *maybe* its of the "Sleeping Beauty" variety.

[BumblingBear]

Sleep is probably one of the staple tools of the Wardens.  Knock em out - slit their throat.  EZ- PZ.

[ways and means]

So a sleep spell mental or physical stress ?

[BumblingBear]

So a sleep spell mental or physical stress ?

Mental.

Edit:  It's mental if you're using spirit to attack the mind.

It may be something else if you can figure out another way to make someone sleep - like through sponsored magic or something.

In that case, it would probably still be mental stress but defended against using endurance instead of discipline or conviction.

[Silverblaze]

A water spell making a tranquilizer solution or venom would be physical otherwiee I agree...mental.

[Richard_Chilton]

Mental.

Edit:  It's mental if you're using spirit to attack the mind.

It may be something else if you can figure out another way to make someone sleep - like through sponsored magic or something.

You wouldn't need sponsored magic.  Just like lightening, sleep can be produced in many way - ways not touching on the mind.

You could use  a potion for an anesthesia type effect.  Magic should be able to duplicate any physical effect that chloroform produces.

Or physical targeted attack using thaumaturgy - assigning someone the physical mild consequence of "asleep".  Easily explained by slowing down a person's body or activating the centres in the brain that regulate sleep.  If your Lore is high enough you could even craft something like that in a potion like vessel - call it the Hanky of Nighty-Nighty (based off the Sunlight in handkerchief "potion").  Unleash it on someone and get the same effect as asking "Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?*".

I can envision some wardens making stockpiles of these items - for when they have to use physical ways to make mundanes sleep.

Evocation? There's air to choke someone to unconsciousness - either through the "Dark Vader Death Grip" or keeping it out of someone's lungs.  Air or earth to do a sleeper hold (maybe spirit as well).  Earth to make someone's blood heavy and rush from his head.  Spirit to draw the humors of the blood from his head.

As I said, a sleep spell is like lightening.  All sorts of ways to do it, and if you're careful you don't have to risk breaking the law to do it.

Richard
* = yes, that was a Leverage quote.  What can I said? I like Parker.

[Becq]

I disagree that a sleep spell is mental.  A sleep spell is about making someone physically incapable of staying away.  Mental attacks are about inflicting psychological trauma and direct attacks against the victims sense of self:

"When this kind of damage is accessible in a conflict, it marks a transition from social into mental territory and puts perhaps the direst stakes of all on the line—the individual’s mind, soul, or sense of self."

"Mental damage is the kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences over time tends to presage a trip to the mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling."

Some other systems use 'mental damage' (or variations on the term) to describe less permanent kinds of damage like stun damage.  But DFRPG takes a very different approach.  And with respect to this particular question, the following quote spells it out fairly clearly (my emphasis):

"The physical stress track is used for stress such as wounds and fatigue.  The mental stress track represents psychological and emotional trauma."