Multiple actions in an exchange

[devonapple]

It sounds like you're arguing my side, which is that multiple actions are a viable mechanic.

But the context makes it seem otherwise.

The problem with multiple attacks is that people want more than spray attacks provide?

I don't understand.

Yes, I agree with you: I use the RAW Spray Attack option, as well as supplemental actions, and feel they are just fine for a more narrative-based game.

What I am hearing (and I may be mistaken) is that folks want multiple attacks at their highest (or a slightly diminished) skill level, in sheer excess of the type of attack levels one gets from the Spray Attack rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hm. Well, I'm hearing differently.

I see two sides here:

1. One action per round. Supplementals, sprays, fine. But no extra actions.
2. Extra actions can be added with powers, as long as they are comparable in power to spray attacks.

I am side two.

I suspect this thread may have started because of the Rapid Strike power that I posted to the master list. -1 power, allows you to spend a Fate point to make a number of attacks up to your skill by taking a penalty equal to the number of attacks to each.

I think that this is roughly comparable to spray attacks.

But some people disapprove of this power, and it seems like the main problem is that it offers multiple attacks. What I don't understand is, why do they like spray attacks and dislike this?

[sinker]

I have had a lot of fun having villains who are capable of multiple actions in an exchange. I had a monster that had mild control over bad luck and it was great fun having him maneuver against his target before attacking. The players thoroughly enjoyed the challenge as well.

As for multiple attacks for the players I'm against them but only because I'm lazy. Seems to me figuring out the cost for such a power and testing it's balance is too much work.

[admiralducksauce]

Sometimes there's a disconnect between the opposition and how effective the players are feeling.  They want to fell a horde of mooks rather than take down each enemy in turn, perhaps.  Maybe the game's dragging while this or that unimportant foe takes up too much of the party's time.  There are legitimate pacing concerns that can result from misjudging how quickly a given group can clear the battlespace of fodder enemies.

Sometimes players are used to systems (a bunch mentioned downthread) where you DO get multiple attacks, even as an option.  Part of it coming up here might be DFRPG (and FATE in general I believe) explicitly saying there are no multiple attacks (how about I call it multiple attack rolls so I don't get pedanted out of the room over Spray Attacks) and that hard "no" in a game full of "yes" is pushing gamers' buttons?

Anyhoo, I can really only offer a little input on that first scenario, and that's to use the mook rules from SotC.  Basically a group of minions move as a unit and a single PC attack can take out 1 mook for each full stress track the attack deals.  Say a unit of 5 mooks with 2 stress gets tagged by a Knight of the Cross who deals out 7 stress.  The Knight takes out 3 mooks with a single attack roll; 2 stress takes out a mook, stress 3-4 takes out a second, and so on.  It can be narrated how you like - maybe it's two thrusts and a headbutt or maybe just one massive swing that cleaves through three torsos.

The other counter to the "fights dragging because you can only kill 1 mook an action" problem is to use less enemies.  Make the ones that ARE there more than simple mooks to make up for the lack of numbers.

[BumblingBear]

Hm. Well, I'm hearing differently.

I see two sides here:

1. One action per round. Supplementals, sprays, fine. But no extra actions.
2. Extra actions can be added with powers, as long as they are comparable in power to spray attacks.

I am side two.

I suspect this thread may have started because of the Rapid Strike power that I posted to the master list. -1 power, allows you to spend a Fate point to make a number of attacks up to your skill by taking a penalty equal to the number of attacks to each.

I think that this is roughly comparable to spray attacks.

But some people disapprove of this power, and it seems like the main problem is that it offers multiple attacks. What I don't understand is, why do they like spray attacks and dislike this?

Tut has a fists skill of 6.

He has 3 fate points.

His opponent Steve has an athletics of 4.

If Tut attacks Steve normally using all of his fate points and everyone rolls a 0, Tut will do a 12 shift attack and Steve will take 8 stress if Tut has a weapon 0.

If Tut uses the Rapid Strikes power, he pays 1 fate point to use it.

He then rolls 2 4 shift attacks.  He adds 2 points to each (with his remaining 2 fate points) and gets a total of a 12 shift attack.

Steve rolls twice for defense, for a total of 8 (4x2).  Tut only does 4 shifts of stress.

8 shifts of stress (normal attack) vs 4 shifts of stress (Rapid Strikes Attack).


Rapid Strikes  is underpowered.  It's pretty much a spray attack that you have to use a fate point to use.

I'm with Sancta on this one.

That said, allowing a PC to ever make another attack as a supplemental action would be shenanigans, though.

[devonapple]

But some people disapprove of this power, and it seems like the main problem is that it offers multiple attacks. What I don't understand is, why do they like spray attacks and dislike this?

The problem (for me) isn't *that* it allows multiple attacks (because Spray Attack certainly does) but that Rapid Strike appears to be much more powerful than a Spray Attack, and though it sounds like a bonus to the Spray Attack rules, it is in truth a somewhat different equation. The best one usually gets with a Fate Point is +2. With this Power (and 1 Refresh) it seems that a character can gain much more.

However, I just did some numbers:

Spray Attack and Fate Point with +6 Fists:
3  targets (2 at +3, and 1 at +2);
4 targets (4 at +2); or
5 targets (3 at +2, and 2 at +1)

Rapid Strike with +6 Fists:
3 targets at +3;
4 targets at +2;
5 targets at +1

I'm actually not sure that the Rapid Attack mechanism is a consistent advantage.

[Silverblaze]

Wouldn't it be two 5 shift attacks? With one fate point per they're 7 shift?  making 6 as opposed to 4?  or am I reading the stunt wrong?

Also, I think stunts that add damage, and powers that add damage and a weapon rating would modify that result as each attack would have the option of using the additional damage multiple times.

One attack that deals 0.  (equal attack and defense) would deal 2 with a weapon rating after the accuracy shifts which = 0.

With two attacks that equals 4 damage yes?

more with stunts and powers per hit.  Even on ties it should turn out more efficient that a single attack.  Also, a player with an excess of fate points could concieveably use 1 for rapid strikes and 2 or more per attack.

meaning it *can* indeed do more damage.  The damage potential is the part i would worry about.  having played OWBN WW (one world by night white wolf) I've seen more munchkins than most...and i fear the unbalancing such players can and will do if the option is present.

meaning one colossal attack - 1 skill to hit..could turn into 2 colossal attacks doing one point of damage each less so...10 X2 = 20 - 2 = 18 instead of 10.

The rapid strikes never says you cant hit the same person multiple times. Thus: an attack dealing 5, -1 for an additional attack...wil deal 4...twice...8 as opposed to 5....this gets worse the more each attack does...with semi diminishing returns.

Fate points really unbalance it…where as most characters can only finagle 2-3 tags of aspects..1-2 consequences for free or by spending fate+1 just cuz you can…that’s deadly on one attack that hits…it will annihilate something when that is doubled. –1 (2?) for one additional attack… plus strength and a weapon… may be even nastier done thrice if one can still hit….and with all those fate points you can.

5 damage becomes 8,…4X2…perhaps if tripled…5 becomes 9…3X3…it becomes no good after that…but…. 10 becomes 18…9X2…or…24…8X3… a weapon 6 isn’t hard to get with a sword plus supernatural strength + custom stunt weapon specialization would be 8… most abusive in melee or with lots of fate points, but guns and weapon specialization can do it too.

Even vs multiple foes...it is better than spray like Devonapple said...espeicalliy given the opportunity to tag more aspects and such per roll per foe.

Easy argument: that’s assuming they have a lot of fate points…
My response: always assume the worst, not the best…which would be the weakest and worse use of the power/stunt…someone with only three fate points…no weapon and no strength.  I see tons of room for abuse.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ah, good. This is what I was asking for.

Before I go into detail, let me make clear that the penalty should be equal to the number of attacks, not the number of extra attacks. The way I wrote it in the master list is bad. I changed it in my own mind, but I never got around to editing the power here. Sorry about that.

Also: Fate Points must be spent to boost the individual attacks of a Rapid Strike. One invocation doesn't boost them all. Also, you have to roll individually for each attack.

Anyway, I already know that Rapid Strike gets better in comparison to spray attacks as your skill rises. At Great skill, you'd be a fool to use Rapid Strike. At Fantastic skill they're about even. At Legendary skill, Rapid Strike is clearly better. But even at Legendary, it's not such a huge deal. You get 2 attacks at Superb with a spray attack and 2 attacks at Fantastic with Rapid Strike.

If accuracy goes much past Legendary, Rapid Strike is borked. Fortunately, I don't think it does. (Ignore evokers, they can't use this power.)

Of course, all this leaves unanswered the question of whether single-target spray attacks are a reasonable effect. I'd allow them if a player spent a refresh on a stunt granting the ability, personally. Here's why:

As BumblingBear showed, normal attacks are better than spray attacks when the weapon rating doesn't exceed the armour rating by much and the attack skill doesn't exceed the defence skill by much. Spray attacks become better when you are superior to your opponent. But if that's the case, you don't need any extra power to win. And if your opponent has any reasonable chance of dodging, then the spray attack is lousy.

Also, 2 9 stress hits is not as good as 1 18 stress hit.

Anyway, that's my reasoning.

[Silverblaze]

my examples still stand when only one additional attack is made...espeically against one target. The math doesn't lie.  .

Still: one 6 stress hit turns into : 6-2=4 2 4stress hits = 8...meaning more damage.  add in weapons and stress boosters...it means more damage. likely 2 8 stress hits meaning it equals 16 instead of 6.  I know one fate point doesn't apply to both rolls...I know you need to roll multiple times.  being able to tag...twice as many times for twice is many fate points is way more than only doing so once.  This means HUGE numbers.  I will concede armor does get applied twice then..but done right...the combat monkey taking extra actions is still coming out on top.  As with any combat system there is a wrong way, a right way, and a efficient and almost or (totally) broken way.

I'm obviously not going to change your mind however.  Which is fine.  I just hope some GM's and players see this and know it can be abused and I hope they choose not to do it.

Also...pet peeve: multiple attacks plus multiple defenses bogs down combat leaving less time for roleplaying and storytelling

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, I think I'm open to persuasion. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble following your most recent post.

Here's an example where Rapid Strike is clearly awesome. Assuming all rolls are 0.

Legendary accuracy, weapon 6 against Great defence.

Normal attack + Fate Point is a 10 stress hit.
Two attacks with Rapid Strike is two 8 stress hits.
Three attacks with Rapid Strike is three 7 stress hits.
Four attacks with Rapid Strike is four 6 stress hits.
Two attack spray + Fate Point is two 7 stress hits.

So, Rapid Strike looks better than the normal attack here. But even here, it's not that huge a deal. Four 6 stress hits is not nearly as good as a 24 stress hit. It's not even always better than a 10 stress hit. A character with Average Endurance and Supernatural Toughness would have to take a consequence against the normal attack, but would remain standing against the Rapid Strike.

Please note that the assumption of average rolls heavily favours Rapid Strike.

That's the best case scenario. The vast majority of the time, Rapid Strike will be weaker than that. So the power you spent a refresh to buy and a fate point to activate will occasionally be better than a normal attack. I see no problem here.

[Silverblaze]

Well, I think I'm open to persuasion. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble following your most recent post.

Here's an example where Rapid Strike is clearly awesome. Assuming all rolls are 0.

Legendary accuracy, weapon 6 against Great defence.

1.Normal attack + Fate Point is a 10 stress hit.
2.Two attacks with Rapid Strike is two 8 stress hits. which = 16 add a few more fate points for sick results
3.Three attacks with Rapid Strike is three 7 stress hits. which = 21 add a few more fate points for sick results
4.Four attacks with Rapid Strike is four 6 stress hits. which = 24 add a few more fate points for sick results
Two attack spray + Fate Point is two 7 stress hits.

So, Rapid Strike looks better than the normal attack here. But even here, it's not that huge a deal. Four 6 stress hits is not nearly as good as a 24 stress hit. It's not even always better than a 10 stress hit. A character with Average Endurance and Supernatural Toughness would have to take a consequence against the normal attack, but would remain standing against the Rapid Strike.

Please note that the assumption of average rolls heavily favours Rapid Strike.

That's the best case scenario. The vast majority of the time, Rapid Strike will be weaker than that. So the power you spent a refresh to buy and a fate point to activate will occasionally be better than a normal attack. I see no problem here.

I bolded something I quoted of Sanctaphrax's.

 His original post did not include thefollowing:

" = X nor "add a few more fate points for sick results"  

Adding those fate points I mentioned to each attack adds 4 to 6 damage per attack...making:
example 2.  - each hit would do 10 or 12 or more = 20 or 24
example 3.  - each would do 9 or 11 or more = 27 or 33
example 4.  - each would do 8 or 10 or more = 32 or 40

These examples are at weapon 6...it is possible to get more damage with a higher strength or adding more stunts or weapon value.  These are not maximum damage values...this means even with Mythic Toughness that has a catch at +0 (cannot be satisfied) nearly anything in the game can be dropped in one round with those rolls.

Something with Unthinkable Size ( hulking size X3...9 endurance, a stunt for one more mild consequence, and all of its consequences open...gives the creature 16 stress plus 28 in consequences...adds up to 44 and that critter would be almost dead.

In said combat the creature would then have many tags (consequences) thrown at it next round or from the next character in order in the current round
That is as many stresses as I can easily add to a monster and with 4 attacks from the above example; with 2 fate points per ( costing 9 fate poitns total [one to activate the stunt and two tags per roll]

...40 damage can be done...and that can be exceeded.  That sort of damage would take a 20 shift evocation to equal thhat melee exchange.... roughly. Imagine what that sort of damage will do to a smaller, less stalwart foe.  

It makes doing that much damage way too easy.   Many characters will never be able to do that much damage in a round.  I think challenging a character that can do that sort of damage with ease could be difficult...wizards like McCoy likely don't chuck 20 shift spells without batting an eye.  I feel the system was created with people doing one attack a round in mind...so the powers and spells are not balanced for it.  

[Silverblaze]

I will admit I forgot to account for armor in my example of the giant monster.  That would subtract 12 from the 40(3 each)... making that attack do 28.  Still quite respectable from a non caster...and still just as destructive to less stalwart foes.

If the power were altered to only allow the attacks to target seperate foes the damage would still be 4 stress 10 hits or 2 stress 10 (12) hits or so which is substantially less...still a lot fo damage to throw around but much more manageable.  I think spray attacks handle it fine, but I can see why people might like rapid strikes.  I'd reccommend it costing more than -1 but then it wouldn't be a stunt anymore...

As is: targeting one foe repeatedly could very easily make one dead foe of almost any power level with a high skill and a good weapon value.

Sure, rolls could make those numbers I came up with much lower...they could also make them much higher  The power has the potential to be quite destructive that's al I'm saying.  It won't always be.  It may be quite inefficient at times, but I'd rather be safe than sorry and take into account the worst case scenario (or best if you are the one delivering attacks not on the recieving end) when it comes to game balance.  It could make other combat characters feel un-needed or be something every character wnats to boost their damage total whether it makes sense on a character or not.
I wont lie, I do see things through crap colored glasses and assume hte worst, but I'm usually right in my pessimism.  Most groups I've gamed with....(7+ different groups with few overlap in players over 14 years) would abuse that if they could. 

[BumblingBear]

I bolded somethign I quoted of Sanctaphrax's his original post did not include the = X nor "add a few more fate points for sick results"  Adding those fate points per attack adds 4 to 6 damage per attack...making:
2. each hit would do 10 or 12 or more = 20 or 24
3. each would do 9 or 11 or more = 27 or 33
4. each would do 8 or 10 or more = 32 or 40

these examples are at weapon 6..it is possible to get more damage with a higher strength or adding more stunts or weapon value...these are not maximum ddamage values...this means even with Mythic Toughness that has a catch at +0 (cannot be satisfied) nearly anything in the game can be dropped in one round with those rolls....somethign with Unthinkable size ( hulking size X3...9 endurance, a stunt for one more mild consequence, and all of its consequences open...gives the creature 16 stress plus 28 in consequences...adds up to 44 and that critter would be almost dead and have many tags thrown at it next round or from the next character...thats as many stresses as I can easily add to a monster and with 4 attacks from the above example with 2 fate points per costing 9 fate poitns total (one to activate the stunt and two tags per roll)...40 damage can be done...and that can be exceeded.  that would take a 20 shift evocation to equal.... roughly. Imagine what that sort of damage will do to a smaller less stalwart foe.  

It is way better than not having the option of having multiple attacks at all though. It also makes doing the 24 stresses far easier(capable eariler) than being an evoker or uber refresh character.  Many characters will never be able to do that much damage in a round.  I think challenging a character that can do that sort of damage without being a wizard that efficiently and at a low refresh is too much.  I feel the system was created with people doing one attack a round in mind...so the powers and spells are not balanced for it.  

^^^ I am really not trying to be a jerk here.  Could you please clean up your grammar and space apart or organizing your thoughts a little better?

I would love to read what you have to say and I feel like you have some interesting points to read, but I just cannot get past the first few sentences.  /sadface

I can usually grasp what you're trying to say but this post just turned my brain in knots.

[Silverblaze]

^^^ I am really not trying to be a jerk here.  Could you please clean up your grammar and space apart or organizing your thoughts a little better?

I would love to read what you have to say and I feel like you have some interesting points to read, but I just cannot get past the first few sentences.  /sadface

I can usually grasp what you're trying to say but this post just turned my brain in knots.

will do.

tired and typing too fast.  playing MMO's made my grammar when typing on the internet abyssmal.  I used to be a grammar nazi><

[ways and means]

Isn't the real reason rapidstrike is better is that it multiplies the weapon rating, so if you have a weapons rating of 11 and say an Epic skill with swords you can make 2 hits at Superb with +11 weapons rating which will stack very nicely, this power is useless against bosess (unless they are substantially worse than you) but could be very useful against a bunch of mooks.