Attack spells that last more than one exchange

[UmbraLux]

I was wondering about the volcano as short term sponsor actually...but would need to reread the section to have more than questions.  I need an easily searchable electronic copy of the novels!

[Tedronai]

Harry's volcano spell does not make a good case for a prolonged attack spell because it was clearly intended to act as a block.

[ways and means]

Harry's volcano spell does not make a good case for a prolonged attack spell because it was clearly intended to act as a block.

It did kill everything in the zone though which to me seems the definition of an attack spell.

[Tedronai]

Both the purpose and the effect of the prolonged duration was to serve as a barrier, ie. a block, against pursuit.

[ways and means]

I suppose your right it is almost like a re-purposed attack into a block but the attack spell and the block spell where defiantly the same spell.

[Tedronai]

Casting that spell also took substantially longer to cast than a normal evocation.
I don't remember exactly how long to say whether it could fairly have been a thaumaturgical ritual, which could perhaps have included both an attack and a block component, but it is one possibility.

[Sanctaphrax]

The problem is that an attack with a duration simply does not make sense in this game unless you write your own rules.

That pretty well proves that they aren't part of the base rules, to me.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure that it "simply does not make sense." I mean, it must make sense to some people, otherwise this thread wouldn't have started in the first place . I still say the language is vague enough that it doesn't completely discount the possibility, anyway.

In any case, whether it's in the base rules or not, there's some interest in making it possible, and a potential rule on the table. Is anyone else willing to playtest it, so we can get a broader perspective on how well it works? My game's got three casters, but they're all low as far as sheer power goes (the highest effective Conviction any of them has is 4 for anything offensive), so it'd be helpful to see how more high-powered groups handle it.

[Sanctaphrax]

It makes plenty of thematic sense. But mechanically, an attack is a thing that happens instantly. Adding duration to one requires new rules in order to work.

I might take a shot at playtesting this some time. If Belial666 can't break this with Elena Blackcloak, then it's definitely balanced.

[Becq]

The basic issue that makes DoT potentially imbalancing is the way the stress is recorded.

That is, say a target has three stress boxes, and takes 3 stress.  Only the third box is marked off.  Instead, say the target takes 1 stress, three times.  The first box is marked off, then the second box as the second stress rolls upward, then the third box.  That's the equivalent of 6 stress!  All it would take to guarantee that this character is taken out would be eight 1-stress hits (which would mark off all three stress boxes and all four consequences up to extreme, assuming the target didn't conceed before then).  So that 8x1-stress DoT accomplishes what a 'normal' attack spell would require as much as 24 stress to do.  It does take longer, of course, but when combined with a grapple that prevents you from doing anything during that time (ie, Orbius), then it's just a matter of running down the clock.

One way to fix this would be to treat the effects of the attack specially, and actually change the impact each exchange.  So the first exchange, you'd temprarily mark the first stress box.  The next exchange you'd transfer the mark to the next box, and so on -- each time removing the pervious mark.  Eventually, mild consequences would be exchanged for moderates, and so on.  Lots of bookkeeping, and the end result is the same amound of effect as an instant attack spell of the same strength.  Of course, then you're left with this question: why not just do the instant attack?

[Mr. Death]

I never understood the problem with Orbius. Nowhere in the spell's description does it say that the target can't attempt to remove it, and with a block rating of 3, it shouldn't be that difficult to do so by anyone with a solid Might or Fists rating. But anyway...

I think the balancing factor of that potential is the fact that it will take eight rounds. That is an incredibly long time in a fight--definitely long enough for something (the bad guy, direct GM intervention via compels, etc.) to push the wizard into a change in strategy. Yes, the wizard can potentially grind away any non-invulnerable adversary, but only if the wizard is relatively unmolested for those eight rounds.

[CottbusFiles]

The basic issue that makes DoT potentially imbalancing is the way the stress is recorded.

That is, say a target has three stress boxes, and takes 3 stress.  Only the third box is marked off.  Instead, say the target takes 1 stress, three times.  The first box is marked off, then the second box as the second stress rolls upward, then the third box.  That's the equivalent of 6 stress!  All it would take to guarantee that this character is taken out would be eight 1-stress hits (which would mark off all three stress boxes and all four consequences up to extreme, assuming the target didn't conceed before then).  So that 8x1-stress DoT accomplishes what a 'normal' attack spell would require as much as 24 stress to do.  It does take longer, of course, but when combined with a grapple that prevents you from doing anything during that time (ie, Orbius), then it's just a matter of running down the clock.

One way to fix this would be to treat the effects of the attack specially, and actually change the impact each exchange.  So the first exchange, you'd temprarily mark the first stress box.  The next exchange you'd transfer the mark to the next box, and so on -- each time removing the pervious mark.  Eventually, mild consequences would be exchanged for moderates, and so on.  Lots of bookkeeping, and the end result is the same amound of effect as an instant attack spell of the same strength.  Of course, then you're left with this question: why not just do the instant attack?

Becq, you are my hero

[sinker]

I never understood the problem with Orbius. Nowhere in the spell's description does it say that the target can't attempt to remove it, and with a block rating of 3, it shouldn't be that difficult to do so by anyone with a solid Might or Fists rating. But anyway...

The problem isn't specifically orbius, but what orbius has the potential to be. Yeah, a three shift block isn't hard to break, but what about a ten shift block? What if I expend a couple of shifts to make it zone wide (which I personally wouldn't allow anyway due to extreme rules lawyering and the fact that I see balance problems, but some people still worry about that)? What it comes down to is if I make a power focused wizard and plan to take some shifts of backlash I can get a really powerful grapple set up and then just slowly bleed the target till it dies. The balance of such actions are questionable.

[Becq]

sinker beat me to it, but I'll stubbornly post this anyway.  :p

I never understood the problem with Orbius. Nowhere in the spell's description does it say that the target can't attempt to remove it, and with a block rating of 3, it shouldn't be that difficult to do so by anyone with a solid Might or Fists rating. But anyway...

With the spell as written in the examples section, I agree.  But what about when someone casts it as two-part spell?  That is, cast a strength 8 grapple without extended duration, then follow it up with an 8 exchange duration boost?

One could argue that this doesn't let a wizard do with magic anything more than another (presumeably Strong) character can do with a normal grapple, but there is one significant difference: the standard grapple requires that the grappler spend his action every echange to maintain it, but once the spell is cast, the spell does all the work leaving the wizard free to act independently.  Perhaps that's the basic problem -- which could be fixed by saying that it's "just a block" unless the wizard spends his action to get the extra grapple bennies.  But then (from a realism point of view) why would the glop plugging the victim's throat be air-permeable only if the wizard happens to focus on glaring at it?

[Haru]

sinker beat Becq, both beat me.

The best way really is to embrace the system for what it can do and not impose something upon it that it can't. It takes some getting used to, because it is a lot different than your average rpg system, but I believe it is worth it.