Attack spells that last more than one exchange

[Orladdin]

It is just way more interesting to throw a frozen turkey at a vampire than barraging it with drumsticks for half an hour.

LMAO, that needs to go in your sig, Haru.  Awesome.

[Mr. Death]

Backlash may be physical or mental stress.

I'm aware, but I was assuming the wizard in question is taking it as Physical stress, since the point of prolonged attacks is to conserve mental stress. Anyway, taking the backlash as mental stress only further reduces how many spells he can cast.

As for the rest the one thing I've been thinking about this whole time is what if the wizard has no friends. The place where this gets really imbalanced is when the wizard is alone against multiple enemies. Normally this would be a situation where the wizard would get shafted (and rightly so), but when you add duration to your attacks suddenly he is still very viable in these circumstances.

Viable, but still vulnerable. Above all, remember that for every action the wizard takes, each of his opponents gets one as well. A handful of maneuvers is all it'll take for even that 10-shift block to get beaten down.

Besides, if the wizard's alone, isn't it a better option to cast that 10-shift block, then just cast a humongous zone-wide spell to kill everyone who's not him?

In terms of added stress I agree, but wearing something down over its stress track can become a tedious job. I've seen that when I sent a beast with supernatural toughness + hulking size at my group. The most effective way to take something out is to aim higher than the stress track and force it to take consequences or forfeit. And you can do that more effective if you pool your resources into one brutal attack.

Amen to that, though I have a story where wearing that one guy down was still dramatic and satisfying for the whole group. They had no idea what his Catch was (even though one of the group had it the whole time, he was engaged with someone else on the other side of the battlefield), and managed to fill nearly every single stress box he had by the end of it. Finally bringing the beast down that way proved to be one of the best sessions we had, like a race to finish him before he blew someone up.

Also good lord you guys are fast. I ended up revising this like three times because every time I tried to, I got that 'warning, someone else posted' thing.

[sinker]

I'm aware, but I was assuming the wizard in question is taking it as Physical stress, since the point of prolonged attacks is to conserve mental stress. Anyway, taking the backlash as mental stress only further reduces how many spells he can cast.

Ignore the physical backlash bit, I just realized where my confusion lay. My point was that there is a significant power difference between two ten shift attacks and six eight shift attacks (or eight seven shift attacks, etc).

[Haru]

Amen to that, though I have a story where wearing that one guy down was still dramatic and satisfying for the whole group. They had no idea what his Catch was (even though one of the group had it the whole time, he was engaged with someone else on the other side of the battlefield), and managed to fill nearly every single stress box he had by the end of it. Finally bringing the beast down that way proved to be one of the best sessions we had, like a race to finish him before he blew someone up.

Hmm, did you try your prolonged spells rule in that fight? In my fight, both spellcasters (one PC one NPC) where on their last leg, the warden even started using his sword. If you can't beat something like that with a well placed blast, it really comes down to a death of a thousand tiny cuts. Admittedly, my monster was defeated by a weapon:2 gunshot that rolled all the way up, but the group had just formed and maneuvers/declarations etc. was too new to really be a big part of the fight.

For me it boils down to this: A wizard can throw around weapon:10+ spells, but he can't do that for very long, while others can only get weapon:2 or 3 guns but they can shoot a whole lot longer. That's why Harry carries a gun or wardens also carry swords.

LMAO, that needs to go in your sig, Haru.  Awesome.

done 

[Mr. Death]

Hmm, did you try your prolonged spells rule in that fight? In my fight, both spellcasters (one PC one NPC) where on their last leg, the warden even started using his sword. If you can't beat something like that with a well placed blast, it really comes down to a death of a thousand tiny cuts. Admittedly, my monster was defeated by a weapon:2 gunshot that rolled all the way up, but the group had just formed and maneuvers/declarations etc. was too new to really be a big part of the fight.

For me it boils down to this: A wizard can throw around weapon:10+ spells, but he can't do that for very long, while others can only get weapon:2 or 3 guns but they can shoot a whole lot longer. That's why Harry carries a gun or wardens also carry swords.

This was actually not in a Dresdenverse game, it was in an adaptation of the rules I made for a Mega Man X setting, so there were no wizards to be found. Plus this was a couple months ago, before I came up with that proposal. Mostly they were making due with Weapon:2 buster shots (which could be charged for more kick, to a point) and Weapon:3 melee attacks.

Mostly, this rule idea came from two things: looking at the books, where Harry ends up in long fights but still keeps casting way more than four spells, and that it didn't make sense to me that even the highest level wizards, like Ebenezer, could only throw four spells around in a battle before he started taking consequences, even if he was holding back on the power.

And this proposal is definitely much better than my initial idea to give spellcasters longevity (which was that they would be able to cast without the mental stress at all, provided the spell's power was half of their effective Conviction, rounded down).

[sinker]

Mostly, this rule idea came from two things: looking at the books, where Harry ends up in long fights but still keeps casting way more than four spells, and that it didn't make sense to me that even the highest level wizards, like Ebenezer, could only throw four spells around in a battle before he started taking consequences, even if he was holding back on the power.

And this proposal is definitely much better than my initial idea to give spellcasters longevity (which was that they would be able to cast without the mental stress at all, provided the spell's power was half of their effective Conviction, rounded down).

Thank you so much Haru. We probably should have asked that question in the first place.

From the RAW there are a few ways to represent the greater endurance we see in the later books. One of them is an increased number of spellcasting consequences. This would be the wizard who draws himself dry so much he starts to get an increased ability to do so.

Another way is actually to segment conflicts. When Changes came out a bunch of people asked Fred "Wait, how the hell were Harry and the other wizards able to cast so much in such a short time?" His response was that there were actually several scenes in that conflict, separated by short pauses for Harry to catch his breath, so to speak.

I know neither of those are necessarily the kind of endurance you're looking at, but I would look at increasing the number of spells that they are capable of casting through the expenditure of resources (I.E. Refresh) rather than attempting to make all casters capable of greater endurance by changing the core rules.

[Mr. Death]

From the RAW there are a few ways to represent the greater endurance we see in the later books. One of them is an increased number of spellcasting consequences. This would be the wizard who draws himself dry so much he starts to get an increased ability to do so.

I forget, were there stunts that gave more mental consequences for just that? Because offhand, I can only think of increasing Mental consequences through the skill increases, and most games you're not going to get a wizard with 7 in Conviction.

Another way is actually to segment conflicts. When Changes came out a bunch of people asked Fred "Wait, how the hell were Harry and the other wizards able to cast so much in such a short time?" His response was that there were actually several scenes in that conflict, separated by short pauses for Harry to catch his breath, so to speak.

I was thinking about that, but those scenes struck me more as an example of the discussion Billy and Dresden have in the margins in regard to stress going away after a scene, unless circumstances have it where you're going right from one fight to another. The big fight in Changes struck me more as that than actually giving Harry breaks.

I know neither of those are necessarily the kind of endurance you're looking at, but I would look at increasing the number of spells that they are capable of casting through the expenditure of resources (I.E. Refresh) rather than attempting to make all casters capable of greater endurance by changing the core rules.

I think it still works out that way--you're still bound by your effective Conviction and Discipline, after all, so if you still want any power in your prolonged spell, you've got to pay for it with higher initial stress and less duration. Someone with higher Conviction (i.e., higher spent refresh) is going to have significantly increased endurance for equal spell power than someone with lower Conviction.

The way I look at it, if you have two casters who're pumping out Weapon:4 spells round after round, someone with an effective conviction of 8 ought to be able to do it easier than someone with an effective conviction of 4. The less experienced/powerful wizard ought to be huffing and puffing after four rounds of that, while the big badass wizard should still be good to go.

With the RAW, they'd take exactly the same stress if the newbie is casting at normal power and the badass is casting Weapon:1 spells, and that just seems off to me.

[sinker]

I forget, were there stunts that gave more mental consequences for just that? Because offhand, I can only think of increasing Mental consequences through the skill increases, and most games you're not going to get a wizard with 7 in Conviction.

There is a stunt that gives one two additional mild consequences within the context of torture. Seems reasonable to assume that we can change the context provided that the new context is equally limiting.

I was thinking about that, but those scenes struck me more as an example of the discussion Billy and Dresden have in the margins in regard to stress going away after a scene, unless circumstances have it where you're going right from one fight to another. The big fight in Changes struck me more as that than actually giving Harry breaks.

Yeah, I didn't mean that there were actual breaks, but that the GM went "Ok, I'm going to end the scene there. Everyone clear your stress and advance the healing on consequences. The next scene starts right at the end of the last."

I think it still works out that way--you're still bound by your effective Conviction and Discipline, after all, so if you still want any power in your prolonged spell, you've got to pay for it with higher initial stress and less duration. Someone with higher Conviction (i.e., higher spent refresh) is going to have significantly increased endurance for equal spell power than someone with lower Conviction.

The way I look at it, if you have two casters who're pumping out Weapon:4 spells round after round, someone with an effective conviction of 8 ought to be able to do it easier than someone with an effective conviction of 4. The less experienced/powerful wizard ought to be huffing and puffing after four rounds of that, while the big badass wizard should still be good to go.

With the RAW, they'd take exactly the same stress if the newbie is casting at normal power and the badass is casting Weapon:1 spells, and that just seems off to me.

I think you're simply underestimating casters. Like I've said I have thrown 10 shift rote spells as a chest-deep caster with no advancements in spellcasting (all of my spare refresh went into holy powers). It's not tough for a low level caster to be throwing around powerful effects. Yeah it's true that there isn't a huge difference as you go up from there, but I think I'd rather give more powerful wizards some form of toughness (extra mental stress) that they have to pay for than apply something like this to the lower level casters.

[Mr. Death]

I think you're simply underestimating casters. Like I've said I have thrown 10 shift rote spells as a chest-deep caster with no advancements in spellcasting (all of my spare refresh went into holy powers). It's not tough for a low level caster to be throwing around powerful effects. Yeah it's true that there isn't a huge difference as you go up from there, but I think I'd rather give more powerful wizards some form of toughness (extra mental stress) that they have to pay for than apply something like this to the lower level casters.

If you can throw around a 10-shift rote without taking a Consequence, it means your effective Conviction and Discipline must be 7 or higher (mostly through Focus Items, I assume). If you're able to pump out more power, with much higher control, than Dresden himself at Submerged level, you're not really what I'd term a "lower level caster" . When I refer to caster ability levels, I'm talking about their effective skill ratings, rather than spent refresh, since that's what the real effect in a fight is.

[sinker]

Nope, you just have to be clever. Superb conviction gives you five to start, add initial foci or specializations (providing between 1 and 5 shifts), and you only need between 1 and 4 stress. Heck, looks like I was actually lowballing it, I could have had a 14 shift rote (of course that would have been a lot of backlash, which is probably why some of those foci went to control for me).

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, I'm well aware of how it would be done. When I'm saying "effective" conviction or discipline, I'm including foci and specializations.

My point was, if you have Superb conviction and discipline, that implies that you're not exactly a beginner at wizarding. If you want to tweak like that, yeah, you can certainly game the system into making yourself pretty damn powerful whether you're working with prolonged spells or not (though I'm curious how you'd be pulling off 10 shift offensive rotes and 10 shift defensive spells in this hypothetical--foci can only be either offense or defense, after all). That's why I'm referring exclusively to effective conviction/discipline as a measure of a caster's power rather than the refresh level, it's a much clearer way of showing how powerful a wizard is than refresh level, which can be a little misleading.

[sinker]

Ok, I can understand that method of measuring power, even if it's not the way done by RAW. Molly (still an apprentice in Our World) for example appears to have great discipline, but a limited set of powers (no sight, no soulgaze, no full thaum).

[Mr. Death]

True, but as I recall her Conviction is only at Good, and she doesn't have much in the way of foci, so it does it on both levels--she's got fewer powers refresh-wise and she's low on effective Conviction and Discipline. You could easily make someone with Molly's exact spent refresh and powerset, then ratchet up her spellcasting skills and add foci to make her a bruiser on par with Harry spell for spell.

[Haru]

Yeah, I didn't mean that there were actual breaks, but that the GM went "Ok, I'm going to end the scene there. Everyone clear your stress and advance the healing on consequences. The next scene starts right at the end of the last."

This works best if the kind of conflict changes (like from a fight to a chase or vice versa). Even if you just do some mid-fight smacktalk, that could be enough to justify clearing stress.

With the RAW, they'd take exactly the same stress if the newbie is casting at normal power and the badass is casting Weapon:1 spells, and that just seems off to me.

Yes, actual evocations will only get you so far, which is actually in line with the novels. Harry is often enough (especially in the first books) winded after 2 or 3 evocations. You have a lot of choices to make as a wizard when using your refresh. You could create a myriad of enchanted items, so you would have almost no worry of running out of mental stress/spells, but at the cost of power. And with the danger of bringing a bag of knifes to a gun fight, if you prepared the wrong spells. Then again, you could put aside some potion slots for just such an occasion.
Or you build up for power and are running on empty after the first few exchanges.

Or you go a completely different route and engrave some of your spells in stone a.k.a. you buy them as a power, which costs the most, but it is going to make them most effective. Breath weapon for fireball spells for example. They are only weapon:2, but they don't cost any mental stress either. You could even argue, that it would be reasonable to only make it a -1 power if you already have evocation.

In any case, your badass is going to have a lot more options available to him that may look like he's casting a spell, but it isn't actually evocation. Or it is, and he is going to shoot the weapon:1 attack as a split from a weapon:15 attack. If a weapon:1 is all he needs, the stress will be gone after the fight in any case.

[devonapple]

There's a discussion about the FATE fractal over on G+ (link later) and I suspect that if we ran these as a Summoning (persistent spell) effect (which could be defeated independently of its creator), we may be able to tie this in with Minions and Summoning.

Edit:
Here is the link (https://plus.google.com/u/0/105843491826683668595/posts/TBcotcYAdx5)

Some of this is purportedly going to be given some ink on "The Paranet Papers," specifically re: thaumaturgical constructs and the like, which sounds like a perfect match for a persistent environmental effect.