Sunlight spell

[Taran]

I'm playing a Soul Fire wielder.

I want to make a spell that fills a zone with Sunlight.

My original idea was to just make it a maneuver that puts the Aspect "sunny" on a scene, but there was some argument as to whether that would damage vampires.  Everyone agreed that it would satisfy catches.

I know sunlight does environmental damage, but do I need to incorporate that into the spell?  Making it a weapon"X"?

I assume if I have to do both the maneuver and the damage it would fall under Thaumaturgy which I could do at the speed of evocation if the complexity wasn't too high.

[ways and means]

Is your character Happy ?

[paul_Harkonen]

Because of the vague and nebulous nature of the Fate system and the DFRPG rules (especially for spell casting) this is actually really simple.  They are two different spells.  One spell you merely wish to fill the area with sunlight.  It lights up the area, applies the aspect "Sunny" or "Covered in Sunshine" or whatever you prefer.  This could also be used to satisfy the catch of vampires, depending on GM rulings.  When you use it to attack vamps however, it becomes a different spell (rules wise) even though the in game affects are the same.  If you want to do damage to them then it becomes an area of effect weapon X attack spell, that probably still satisfies the catch for vamps.

It is the same logic as conjuring water.  You can create a stream of water that puts out fires and covers the ground applying "wet" or you can point that water at something and use it like a fire hose, in which case it is an attack.

[Taran]

Is your character Happy ?

My character is, in fact, not happy; but his Sponsor is.  

When you use it to attack vamps however, it becomes a different spell (rules wise) even though the in game affects are the same.  If you want to do damage to them then it becomes an area of effect weapon X attack spell, that probably still satisfies the catch for vamps.

 

O.k.  So thaumaturgy is the way to go, then.  I just wanted to recreate an on-going sunlight environmental effect spell.  One where normal mortals who spend too much time make rolls to resist sunburn every hour or so, but vamps and stuff get dusted.

With an evocation version, I guess I would just say that bright hot sunlight baths the area(at weapon 7) and only vamps take the damage.

EDIT: weapon 5 +2 shifts for the zone

[Tsunami]

Rules wise it's easy to create a spell that does more or less what you wan't.

Except for the selectiveness of area attacks... the fact that you have to hit everything in a zone imposes an important limitation on them.

A spell that kills vamps like ants under a magnifying glass, but leaves everything else standing?
Boy, the White Council would have wiped the Red out years ago if something like that existed.

I'd say you have two ways, either maneuver and place an aspect like "Holy Light" (soulfire provides for the ability to make Holy magic, so catches would be satisfied), or make a straight up area attack that damages everyone and everything, satisfying catches like "holy stuff".

[sinker]

I know people will be less than happy with this but the way you describe it earlier I would actually call it a maneuver. There's just no way in the system to create ongoing damage effects, or at the very least it takes some really loose interpretations of things to do so. I suppose you could use your next exchange to extend an attack spell, but normally attacks don't technically last throughout an exchange (so that they're still around to extend) like blocks and maneuvers do and it also gets around the stress limit on magic (giving you 4-6 attack spells for only two stress) which makes me a little nervous. I don't even think they have a mechanic for thaumaturgy to do continuous damage to something.

So, if you really want an ongoing area of sunlight that damages vamps I'd call it a maneuver to create an aspect of "Holy light" or similar, but don't expect it to vaporize all the vamps. Mooks may go down, but likely the bigger vamps would simply dash out of the space smoldering, and then hover at the edges, waiting for the light to die. Or maybe just run off swearing revenge or something.

[ways and means]

I think you can definatly increase the duration on attack spell

(click to show/hide)

In one of the DF books Harry created a small volcanoe effect with evocation which incinerated everyone in the area until it ran out of duration/ steam

, the only trouble is that an enemy can step out of a zone of fire making your extra durations useless. Thamaturgy can do everything Evocation can so it could also do solar area bonbardment.

[Belial666]

A spell that kills vamps like ants under a magnifying glass, but leaves everything else standing?
Boy, the White Council would have wiped the Red out years ago if something like that existed.

We are talking about Soulfire (and/or other sponsored magic) here. Thaumaturgy as evocation has no problem creating effects keyed to specific creature types. They just need a small extra cost. Besides, conjuring sunlight (which would be adjudicated as a keyed Ward IMHO) is not the only way to deal with creatures of darkness when you got Soulfire;

Rain of Vengeance

Type: Conjuration (soulfire) 12 shifts
Effect: You conjure a downpour of holy water, banishing the unholy
Mechanics: Conjuration 6 shifts for water mass enough to cover a small park. 4 shift maneuver to apply aspect "Holy". 2 shifts for zone-wide.
Notes: Unleashing several tons of holy water in a zone might have interesting side-effects like washing some people aside but it's hardly damaging. The effect on creatures vulnerable to holy water however is equal to a weapon 10 zone-wide holy attack.

[Taran]

A spell that kills vamps like ants under a magnifying glass, but leaves everything else standing?
Boy, the White Council would have wiped the Red out years ago if something like that existed.

I assume not many wizards on the council do soul-fire which is the only(or my) justification for a spell like this.  

I just assumed that, with thaumaturgy, I could model it after the "sunburst hankercheif" exept add duration and zone.  It specifically says it doesn't harm normal people.

"this does no damage to most targets but satisfies the Catch for a number of supernatural creatures." YS, p. 304

My original question was whether just putting an aspect of "holy sunlight" would cause damage, but I guess it would just allow compels etc.
To do damage, mechanically, I'd have to create a thaumaturgical spell.

@ belial666  You posted as I was typing.  I agree.  How do you come up with the base complexities?  Why is Holy a 4 shift maneuver?  IF I'm doing a sunlight spell as a maneuver, is there any difference whether it's 4 shifts or 8 shifts or is that just more in the story-telling how it might affect creatures?

[sinker]

I think you can definatly increase the duration on attack spell

(click to show/hide)

In one of the DF books Harry created a small volcanoe effect with evocation which incinerated everyone in the area until it ran out of duration/ steam

, the only trouble is that an enemy can step out of a zone of fire making your extra durations useless. Thamaturgy can do everything Evocation can so it could also do solar area bonbardment.

I can see justification thematically and in the fiction, I just can't see justification mechanically, but that's up to interpretation so I can see someone else running it differently.

As for the attack itself I have no problem with soulfire picking and choosing targets under the right circumstances. That's totally within the agenda and purview of that particular sponsor.

[Belial666]

It's not picking and choosing targets; it's using an area attack that is harmful to some targets but not to others. Sort of if you were immune to fire and threw a fireball at your feet or you're wearing a gas mask and you use sarin - only you just use sunlight that is mostly harmless except vs vampires and suff.

[ways and means]

Oribus is the mixing of an attack and a grapple over a duration and it never says in the raw you cannot extend any magical attack or give any magical attack extra duration. 

[sinker]

It's not picking and choosing targets; it's using an area attack that is harmful to some targets but not to others. Sort of if you were immune to fire and threw a fireball at your feet or you're wearing a gas mask and you use sarin - only you just use sunlight that is mostly harmless except vs vampires and suff.

Yes, this. Agreed.

Oribus is the mixing of an attack and a grapple over a duration and it never says in the raw you cannot extend any magical attack or give any magical attack extra duration. 

Orbius isn't a good example of an attack extended over exchanges and it's not an attack mixed with a grapple. It's a grapple plain and simple. Yes it does deal damage, just as all grapples have the option of dealing one additional stress per exchange. Because it's a grapple all block rules apply to it. A block/grapple lasts till the next exchange an attack does not.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd allow sunlight attacks with sponsored magic. I'd also let normal wizards purchase the ability to use them, maybe for 1 refresh or maybe as an element.

While I like the idea of an attack with a duration, I have no idea how to model it mechanically. Maybe just reapplying the spell every round would be fair for a zone-wide attack, since the targets can leave the zone. But for a targeted attack I'm pretty sure it's be too powerful.

[paul_Harkonen]

I can see justification thematically and in the fiction, I just can't see justification mechanically, but that's up to interpretation so I can see someone else running it differently.

This is the biggest issue with designing spells.  You have to start with how it works thematically then back calculate what it costs and what it is to have the desired effect.  That's why I said that I think the best way is to have it operate mechanically as different spells for different effects (potentially casting multiple times, or operating as thaumaturgy for continuing effects).  To create spells you decide on a thematic effect (Sunlight in this case) then decide on mechanical effects (either light or burning vamps) then decide on the mechanics of casting (either a maneuver or attack resolved as normal).

The mechanics have lots of ways around things, you just have to work them out and be prepared to have something that you think of as an instantaneous reaction take multiple turns in the game.