Question on Evocation & Elements?

[citadel97501]

Hello all,

I was just wondering whether summoning an element takes Spirit magic, or the element that fits it?

Lets say shards of rock?
-Would that be Earth magic, or Spirit magic since your summoning something made of Ectoplasm?

[crusher_bob]

In theory, instantly creating things out of ectoplasm is normally the domain of spirit.  But remember that the exact definition of what you can do with each element is pretty fluid.  (See YS 254)

[sinker]

I would say yes, and refer you to the box entitled "Mommy, where does lightning come from?"

[Eunomiac]

I think the element system is both too flexible and not flexible enough.

It's too flexible in that it emphasizes that every element can do everything.  That robs elements of their flavor, not to mention being a major contributor to the overwhelming overkill that is Evocation (i.e. the "restriction" to "only" three elements is no restriction at all).  It's an alternative to filling pages upon pages with details on what each element can do, but not the only alternative:  A Tarot-like treatment, with each element getting a set of adjectives that behave much like aspects, would have worked nicely and taken up just as much space. (Yeah, it's sort of there already, but diluted by all the "every element can do everything" talk.)

It's not flexible enough in that it strictly compartmentalizes which element you're using:  You are either doing a Spirit Evocation, OR an Earth Evocation, but never a Spirit/Earth Evocation.  We decided to try weaving elements together, like in The Wheel of Time.  It works amazingly well and I highly recommend it.  Our Spirit/Fire/Water Sorceress has the aspect "Ignite The Rain", which she invokes when casting spells with more than one element.  Her go-to Fire/Water rote ("Ignaqua!") splits a double-helix of steam and burning kerosene against two opponents.  Way cooler than two fireballs, and does exactly the same thing.

Taking all of the above into account, I'm probably a bit more strict than most groups in what each individual element can do on its own (e.g. I would answer OP's question with "Spirit for a ghostly, transient rock; Spirit+Earth for something more real/permanent; but not Earth alone").  But restrictions breed creativity, and this is especially true with weaving multiple elements together.  Five elements makes ten two-element pairs, ten trips, five quads (strange stuff here), and one medley of all five Elements that I'd probably require for things like evoking exotic states of matter or messing with the fundamental properties of magic.  The more complex the effect, the more Elements you can pile on.  Mucking about with life could arguably require all five, or less depending on what you want to do (Fire[purity] + Water[blood] + Subtle-Spirit[soul] to heal, adding Earth[body] and maybe even Air[breath] to create life).  Ditto on things like nuclear radiation (Fire[heat] + Spirit[light] + Earth[atoms]) or time (Earth[gravity warps space-time] + Air[movement] + Water[reverse entropy]).

[citadel97501]

That is a very interesting set of restrictions, Eunomiac.  I agree that would create a very interesting set of spells, rather than the current brute force applications.  Then again wouldn't it detract from the aspect nature of the game, unless your character had some twin element aspect thing?

[ways and means]

My only problem with the element system in evocation is that spirit is plain better, it can do pretty much everything all the other elements can do and it also has a large number of tricks all to itself (veils, mind-hack, illusions etc) and fire is pretty much the weakest of the elements because it can't really block bullets and physical force.

[Eunomiac]

... wouldn't it detract from the aspect nature of the game, unless your character had some twin element aspect thing?

You're right, we made it work through one of her aspects: "Ignite the Rain."  That, plus me hewing a little more strictly to elemental definitions, encourages her to combine elements.  It's part of her larger character concept (she's one of the few practitioners who can do this sort of thing), so it actually plays well with her aspects.

My only problem with the element system in evocation is that spirit is plain better, it can do pretty much everything all the other elements can do and it also has a large number of tricks all to itself (veils, mind-hack, illusions etc) and fire is pretty much the weakest of the elements because it can't really block bullets and physical force.

I agree with you about Spirit -- I think it needs to be split up, and some of its powers given to the other elements.  Light could be handed off to Fire (along with veils and illusions) for a subtler side of "Fuego!", and kinetic force could be given to Air (if it weren't such a big part of the novels).  In my opinion, Spirit should have no direct attack abilities (against physical beings, at least).  Mental, sure.  Against ghosts/spirits, sure.  But if all you know is Spirit and you want to hurt someone, then drag them into the Nevernever with you where Spirit reigns supreme.

As for fire being weak, I think it has less to do with what Fire can't do, and more to do with the fact that all of the other elements have been deemed to be just as good as Fire at dealing damage.  Blowing things up is Fire's domain, period.  This can be fixed with aspects:  Your average free-taggable scene/maneuver aspect will apply to a fire spell over most other elements (think of all the examples in the books: "crates" burn, "gas mains" explode, "candle-light" implies fire, most people wear "clothes" that burn, etc... air/earth/water don't get as many, just as a practical matter).  Fire is the go-to element for the ultra-attack where you pile on a bunch of temporary aspects and tag them all at once.

As for stopping bullets, fire can deflect them with mini-explosions (see the climactic scene in Firestarter; Drew Barrymore could evoke some serious Fire as a kid, and deflected bullets with it).  As for physical force, obviously this depends on context, but use fire's fear/pain effects to ward off (i.e. block) physical attacks, deflect them like bullets, destroy the incoming physical force, etc.  If you mean spirit-force, then yeah, that's trickier.  I can't remember exactly how Harry

(click to show/hide)

burned his hand

, but didn't that have something to do with spirit-meeting-fire?  You could probably flip that around to justify a fire-block against spirit force, but in fairness, Fire is not a stopping element and should be weakest at defense.

[Richard_Chilton]

It was air magic that let him down.  His shield was kinetic, not thermodynamic.

Richard

[citadel97501]

Good idea, on the mini-explosions.

I personally like using fire for combat maneuvers, heating up an enemies weapon to red hot, or just flat melting them works great, suddenly you don't need to deal with their Guns, or Weapons skill, now all you need to deal with is coming up with a way to deal with Fists, and your set. 

[Eunomiac]

I personally like using fire for combat maneuvers, heating up an enemies weapon to red hot, or just flat melting them works great, suddenly you don't need to deal with their Guns, or Weapons skill, now all you need to deal with is coming up with a way to deal with Fists, and your set. 

Fists are flammable too!

[ways and means]

Fists are flammable too!

I am pretty certain that counts as an attack rather than a manouvre.

[Sh33p]

The thing with elements is that it's really all down to how you fluff it. Fire is the Weapon of Choice for Wizards, but we've seen plenty of more destructive things they can call upon at will -- from gravity bombs to hydromancy-inspired entropy blasts.

And don't forget that Bianca once wore a fricking dress made out of fire.

Aside from that, I'd like to see someone do a flame-based healer. Burn away the injuries of your comrades.

[evileeyore]

Burn away the injuries of your comrades.

PURIFY WITH FIRE!