Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification

[InFerrumVeritas]

Okay, I've got a quick question that I wasn't able to find an answer for.  I know that if you have Sponsored Magic you may only take Refinement for Item Slots.  However, say you have Seelie Magic AND Evocation.  Now, because you have Evocation, you can obviously take Refinement for Specialization.  My question is thus: Can you, if you have Evocation, take Specialization in "Summer" as your element?

[evileeyore]

I would say no.  You're taking the Refinement for Evocation which does not have Summer as an Element.


However if you were a Changeling or Fae spellcaster... then your Evocation might not work the same as a "mortal" Wizards.

[MijRai]

Actually, the Seelie and Unseelie Magics give a user with evocation the Un/Seelie element. So yes, you can put your refinement to Seelie.

[Belial666]

Exactly. Typically, a Sponsored Magic will either work as an existing evocation element or add a new element to the evocation you are using. In addition, all sponsored magics can "supercharge" evocation; even if you don't have specialization/foci in their element as an evoker, IF you can justify a spell to fit within their purview, you can use your Evocation bonuses anyway.

[Tedronai]

Actually, the Seelie and Unseelie Magics give a user with evocation the Un/Seelie element. So yes, you can put your refinement to Seelie.

No, they give you CHANNELING with the Court's 'element'.  Which is slightly different.

[Belial666]

Yes, but you can supercharge Fire spells with Summer Fire and thus use your Fire specializations for Summer spells. Effectively you can use Summer Fire with specialization bonuses, no problem.

[MijRai]

No, they give you CHANNELING with the Court's 'element'.  Which is slightly different.

In addition, Winter magic may be used as an
element for evocation

The entry for Seelie magic is all but the same.

[Tedronai]

Evocation is more than just the Power, it is also the PROCESS.

Channeling. You are able to use Evocation
as described on page 249,[...]

In practice, this is essentially equivalent to
taking the Channeling and Ritual abilities priced
at 2 refresh apiece, with the sponsored source
of power replacing the usual specialized focus
(this is why Seelie Magic is priced as a 4 refresh
ability).

(bolding added)

[MorkaisChosen]

Except that text is for if you have Seelie Magic but not Evocation.

[Tedronai]

My mistake, I flipped 'with' and 'evocation' in MijRai's post, which significantly changed the meaning of his post.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Yay, not quite a consensus.  Now I don't feel as dumb for asking.

The way I read it was, if you do not have Evocation, then it's like you have Channeling.  But, if you've got evocation, it's just another element you can use (plus the other sponsored magic stuff) and therefore you can specialize in it.

[evileeyore]

Evocation is more than just the Power, it is also the PROCESS.(bolding added)

Which is where I'm coming from.

If you're a mortal Wizzard with Evocation and Seelie Magics, you know Evocation and all it's trappings.  Evocation does not confer knowledge of or power over Seelie Magic.  That is coming from your Sponsor.

Now granted I'm not likely to be a hard @ss if the player has Evocation and Seelie Magic and is relatively in concert with their Sponsor.  So I'd probably allow a Refinement specialization in that case.

[Belial666]

Guys, guys, the relevant passage on Sponsored Magic + Evocation is in p.288 and it is this one;

...if you already practice evocation,
you may use a sponsored power source to
“supercharge” an element you’ve already specialized
in. So Summer magic might combine with
the air element to give a “breath of life” effect;
hellfire might combine with fire to produce,
well, hell-fire; and Kemmlerian necromancy
might combine with the spirit element to inflict
potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort
of combination allows the spellcaster to use his
existing evocation specialization bonuses with
the new power source.

So yes, you can use your specializations with sponsored magic just fine.

[MorkaisChosen]

So yes, you can use your specializations with sponsored magic just fine.

True, but that's not quite the issue. The question is whether you can have a Summer specialisation in Evocation; that only addresses using the other Summer magic benefits with a normal-element specialisation.

[devonapple]

The question is whether you can have a Summer specialisation in Evocation; that only addresses using the other Summer magic benefits with a normal-element specialisation.

Good point. It could easily become a blanket specialization that one could justify using for pretty much all of one's spells.

I'd allow it, but I can see why others wouldn't.