Wizard Stamina, Wizard Differences

[Tenebrus]

My initial impression is that magicians run out of juice too quickly.  Although my players are nowhere near Dresden in power, we have seen him fight pretty hard and long in Changes, and elsewhere.  Molly and the trainees can hang in as well.  Yet the system is beating up my casters, who are out of Oomph after 3-4 spells, and this seems counter to the spirit of the books.  And so:

1  What's your experience?  Is there some part of the rules I've overlooked?

2  What do you do for recovery?  Tricks, hints, etc.

3  How about a Refinement that lets you reduce the stress of a spell of a certain element by 1 or 2?  Maybe have Rote spells cost less stress?

4  A spell with Shifts below your adjusted Discipline costs 0 mental stress?

Also, has anyone looked at making these casters more individualized and less cookie cutter?

Many thanks in advance.

[evileeyore]

For one thing Harry seems to switch back and forth between Enchanted Items and Casting, I'd say 3/4 Spells, 1/4 Items.

And he does an awful lot of running away and taking consequences.


Yeah, in the later books he's dropping bombs and fighting longer, not sure where he's getting the extra staying power from in those cases.

I recall a thread somewhere in here about Rotes not taking Stress?  Maybe, not sure.

[WillH]

Yeah, in the later books he's dropping bombs and fighting longer, not sure where he's getting the extra staying power from in those cases.

He has sponsored magic and is likely ringing up quite a tab.

[My Dark Sunshine]

1  What's your experience?  Is there some part of the rules I've overlooked?

That it is a balancing factor. Wizard's are capable of dishing out a lot of punishment. Sure, a well built character can equal a Wizard in terms of stress dealt at many power-levels, few have the flexibility a Wizard has.

A Wizard is usually capable of dishing out four spells, before taking consequences. This is usually enough for most fights, as they rarely last long in the DFRPG. That, and enchanted items can help a Wizard keep casting for longer.

2  What do you do for recovery?  Tricks, hints, etc.

A mid-fight 'recovery' can be implemented at GM discretion during those big, climatic fights. However it may fit the story better for the fight to go on without pause, it all depends on the tempo.

To better manage stress, some people have a method to get the most out of the stress available. Of the four spells you can cast in a fight (without taking consequences), have the first at base Conviction + Specialisations/Foci bonus, costing one stress. Add 1 to that power for the next, for 2 stress. Have the third add 2, for 3 stress. Fourth, add 3 to the base power, for 4 stress. You can also have the first spell cost 4, second cost 3, etc. It is an 'optimised' method that makes the most out of it. Although personally I think its acting on 'OOC mechanics' too much.

3  How about a Refinement that lets you reduce the stress of a spell of a certain element by 1 or 2?  Maybe have Rote spells cost less stress?

I personally don't like this idea. You can simply 'up' your power specialisation, which consequently reduces the stress a spell at a given power level will give; to a minimum of one.

4  A spell with Shifts below your adjusted Discipline costs 0 mental stress?

In my opinion, that would be a very, very bad idea. Rote's are already better then standard spells, in that no control roll is necessary. Implementing this sort of house rule, would completely break the balancing factors.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

[InFerrumVeritas]

My initial impression is that magicians run out of juice too quickly.  Although my players are nowhere near Dresden in power, we have seen him fight pretty hard and long in Changes, and elsewhere.  Molly and the trainees can hang in as well.  Yet the system is beating up my casters, who are out of Oomph after 3-4 spells, and this seems counter to the spirit of the books.  And so:

1  What's your experience?  Is there some part of the rules I've overlooked?

2  What do you do for recovery?  Tricks, hints, etc.

3  How about a Refinement that lets you reduce the stress of a spell of a certain element by 1 or 2?  Maybe have Rote spells cost less stress?

4  A spell with Shifts below your adjusted Discipline costs 0 mental stress?

Also, has anyone looked at making these casters more individualized and less cookie cutter?

Many thanks in advance.

I think it's pretty balanced, honestly.  It feels about right.  Sure in the last few books Dresden is slinging around a lot more power but he's seen as one of the most powerful wizards (as far as Raw power goes, not control) out there, especially with evocation.  Spoiler from Changes

(click to show/hide)

Not to mention he's got sponsored magic (hellfire, soulfire, and finally Unseelie) backing him up.

 

If you have a power or skill stunt that reduces stress incurred by casting (something that I caution), it should have the stipulation that it cannot reduce the stress below 1 point (just like most discounts to Refresh, really).  There has to be a limit to casting because of the power that it brings (equivalent to better than a rocket launcher quite often).  However, this method really just leaves you with the same cost and benefit of Specialization.  On a side note, a stunt or power that allows you to reduce backlash would be kind of cool (again, not below 1, so different from Control Specialization).

Are your players frequently casting spells with more shifts than their conviction scores?  Are they taking consequences?  

Also, remember that "navel-gazing maneuvers" are a great way to pump up the power of a spell without increasing its cost (two rounds of maneuvers, one to raise conviction one to raise discipline, then one round to cast) which fits flavor of weaker casters quite well (they can bring the hurt and bring it hard, but need more time than a more powerful or more trained wizard).

[Crion]

He has sponsored magic and is likely ringing up quite a tab.

I have to side with this. Let's face it: he has access to Hellfire by the end of Death Masks (#5), swaps that for Soulfire by Small Favor (#10), and by the time you hit the major scenes in Changes,

(click to show/hide)

he's tapping leylines and is probably selling himself to Maab more and more

.

I can also see Harry wracking up mental consequences left and right as things go along, as after most of those epic battles in the books, he's fried beyond belief (e.g. "lost" his magic in Fool Moon).

As for how to give casters more "oomph," dunno yet. I'll let you know after I finally get my table together to start playing, as I have three casters sitting around.

--Crion[/color]

[Haru]

There is a stunt that gives you 2 extra mild mental consequences. If you use up all 3 mild consequences, that should be some more oomph. They should be gone after a good nights sleep, and remember, often enough Harry is too tired to stand after he's thrown around a lot of power.

And remember, that 1 die roll does not have to mean 1 spell is cast. It means 1 effect using magic was done. If you are covering an exit with multiple fireballs, you are only doing 1 die roll and get stress 1 time for that exchange, even if it is the same thing as if you would throw 1 fireball to harm an enemy (and even then it could be multiple fireballs, but still 1 die roll). You could even have the magic just be flair, have the wizard fling the occasional fireball around just by announcing it, but it does not have any impact on anything.

Which brings me to your point of individualised casters. I think the rules are perfect for this. In other gaming systems, you have to take certain spells to create a certain effect. Here you can think of a theme for a caster and model the effects you want around this theme, which can be drastically different, without any one of them more or less effective.

[Belial666]

Wizard stamina (spells per combat) is as follows;

4 spells cast every fight. If a fight is over, the mental stress goes away and can be cast again.
2 mental consequences from superb conviction. Those can be used every other scene/fight so amount to 1 more spell per scene/fight.

Do note that fight/scene is in the range of a few minutes to half an hour at most, so 5 "renewable" spells per scene may well mean eighty (80!) spells over the course of a day. Extremely long fights and major battles count as more than one scene; every time there's a small pause the wizard can regroup, fall back or catch his breath for a couple of minutes, stress can be cleared. (think of the boxing equivalent where combatants pause between rounds - stress clears then but consequences remain)

Wizards can also tap non-renewable resources;

Enchanted items (usually 4-6 uses per day)
Sponsored Magic via actual sponsors or Leyline/Energy Source tapping (usually no more than half your refresh per day before you really need to face compels)
Moderate and Serious consequences (2 of them, one for a day/scenario, one for several scenarios)


Very powerful wizards can extend their power significantly;

They get an extra mental consequence once they hit Epic Conviction. (Dresden might or might not have this)
They might have an extra mental consequence via a stunt. (Ramirez and probably Dresden might have this)
They get more (and stronger) enchanted items.
They have a higher refresh level so usually they can channel more sponsored magic.

[Crion]

Which brings me to your point of individualised casters. I think the rules are perfect for this. In other gaming systems, you have to take certain spells to create a certain effect. Here you can think of a theme for a caster and model the effects you want around this theme, which can be drastically different, without any one of them more or less effective.

I'm going to spring from this note and give the example of the party I have at my table, who will begin playing this week. You will notice rather quickly that they are NOT cookie-cutter-casters in the long run, even if they share common numbers. As a note, I'm using a lightly modified set of rules for this game, as it is in a fantasy/steampunk version of Victorian England (using the Dresden rules to power a setting of a game I dislike the RAW for). Also, I made a mistake with my previous post: I have four casters, not three.

1) Military Captain Kinetomancer. Has Channeling: Spirit (force-type). Discipline and Conviction at +3 (would have been without the magic due to his personality), and one point of refinement to boost offensive control.

2) Knowledge Hungry Thaumaturgist. Lore at +4, has Channeling: Fire for a bit of flavour and last-minute "oomph," and is big on Wards and minor enchantments.

3) Widowed Ectomancer. The character concept under the old rules was to by a psychic medium that specialized in Seances, but was not above performing a fake on. Lore at +4, Ritual: Ectomancy, Refinement, and her other stunts assist her with faking the seance, or to put on a show when doing the real thing.

4) Dabbling Diabolist. This character was the most difficult to translate between systems due to her conglomeration of powers. Thaumaturgy with an emphasis in Summoning demons, Spirit (veils and mental attacks), and in combat will resort to the equivalent of breaking the fourth law and tearing apart minds. Her stats are similar with Lore at +4 and Conviction/Discipline at +3.


Just something to think about; the numbers can be the same, but the entire flavour and approach to the character makes all the difference.

[Bruce Coulson]

I haven't noticed any serious issues with wizards in combat, given the speed of most combats.

Besides, a wizard in my campaign did a thaumaturgical ritual that did 15 shifts of damage in 3 zones for 30 minutes, so I think wizards are balanced enough in DFRPG...

[Belial666]

If someone was sitting in the same zone for 30 minutes, he deserved to get pwned.  It's when the wizard pulls a Seal of Doom that does the same in a single exchange that might cause problems.

[noclue]

Yet the system is beating up my casters, who are out of Oomph after 3-4 spells, and this seems counter to the spirit of the books.

How often does Harry really cast more than 4 spells in a fight? How many times does he do so without taking Consequences from working so much mojo?

[Bruce Coulson]

The group wanted to make sure the building was removed from the city landscape...the target in the building left after the initial strike and was exceedingly annoyed...

[Jack B]

When I got tired of my wizard only getting 4 spells off per fight (not counting consequences), this is what I did.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23196.0.html

It works well.  The only change that I made was to take away the mental armour 1.

[sinker]

You might want to check your link Jack.

There is a stunt that gives you 2 extra mild mental consequences.

There is one in the early bird PDF copy, however the published version does not have this stunt (or it does but has limited the consequences to only as a result of torture).

Personally I have only once bumped into any situation when the spellcasters were out of mental stress and it wasn't supposed to be that way (I.E. it was a dramatic situation that required an extra push from all of us). Here's a question that I find happens a lot for GMs who are new to Fate3 and may cause this issue. Is your GM giving all of the opponents consequences? When we just started the GM was doing this and we were running out of spells before the opposition went down. Most NPCs shouldn't have consequences because they have less commitment to the situation. They aren't going to die or for that matter take any severe injuries for the situation.