The strength of your rotes

[WillH]

Weapon 8 rote is well above average in magical power for submerged people.

Belial said this over in the A bit frustrated thread. I didn't want to derail things there, but a weapon 8 rote seems pretty average for a primary attack from a submerged caster to me. I'm wondering why is there a difference in opinion?

[ways and means]

Most people focus on discipline (accuracy) rather than power.

[WillH]

Yeah, I was assuming a focus on control when I said weapon 8 was about average.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Powers for a focused Evocation Wizard: Evocation-3, Thaumaturgy-3, The Sight-1, Refinement -2
Skills: Conviction+5, Discipline+5, Lore+4 (others aren't relevant for the breakdown)
Specializations: Spirit Power+1, Spirit Control+2
Focus Items (4): Spirit Offensive Power+2, Spirit Offensive Control+1, Spirit Defensive Power+1

With this, we're looking at rote spells that, if with the primary element, are done with 8 shifts for offensive and 7 for defensive.  This is pretty specialized in one element though.  With any less focus, you're looking at less shifts.  So I'd say at Submerged 8 shifts for rote spells is pretty top tier.

Now, for Ss&Gs, we'll look at an enchanted item specialist:

Powers for focused crafting Wizard: "  "
Skills: Lore+5 (others aren't relevant)
Specializations: Crafting Frequency+1, Crafting Power+2, Item Slots

6 focus items
Focus: Crafting Power+3
6 Enchanted Items:
Weapon 10 4/session
Shield+10/Armor 5 4/session
2 Potions

So based on that you're slightly behind the curve.  I'm not sure how many crafters are running around out there though.  It's probably the most optimized path in the game for a spellcaster (an can be used for noncombat equally well).

EDIT: Technically, I think taking all of those Refinements in Item Slots over Specialization could net a higher bonus...

[Belial666]

It is an above average rote because it sits above the middle between least powerful rotes and more powerful rotes;

Weaker rotes;
Not all wizards are evocation specialists; many are going to use their specializations and foci in crafting items, ritual magic and so on. Also, not everyone focuses on the same element and they may focus on defense against offense. Finally, not everyone has superb Discipline and Conviction; someone might have superb Lore instead of Conviction while others might not be well-trained and have lower discipline. A rote from someone with no offensive foci or specializations is based off conviction and discipline. For max in those skills it is Power/Control 5. For slightly less than max, it is Power/Control 4.

Stronger rotes;
Some people do focus everything on offensive evocation. Other people might not be wizards and have sponsored magic instead of or in addition to full thaumaturgy and/or evocation that makes them more powerful (hellfire, necromancy and outsider magic or equivalents). A really strong rote from a powerful offensive specialist with foci (evocation, sponsored magic with thematic bonuses, lawbreaker 2, refinement 1 OR evocation, sponsored magic, refinement 3) is Power 10 Control 11 or even Power 11 Control 11



So, even looking between the two extremes, power 8 control 8 is above-average for a rote in absolute numbers. But in comparison, it is twice as strong as the minimum and more than 2/3 the maximum. Also, most example wizards are closer to the lower end of the scale than the higher; Harry Dresden can pull 8-shift lethal rotes but he is supposed to be really strong as a wizard, if largely undisciplined.


EDIT:
If you're looking at enchanted items, remember that they may get power 10 if you push it but their attack roll will still be at your base discipline (suberb or less). Typically, a weapon 8 control 8 rote will hit 95% of the time and do 11 shifts of average damage against superb defense. A 10-shift item will hit 50% of the time vs superb defense and deal 10 shifts of damage. So items are weaker.

[WillH]

I see, you're assuming power and control should be equal. I would just pump everything into control, except where necessary to follow specialization rules, then take three or four stress from the rote. If I want to cast one stress spells I can do that safely without a rote.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Will: That's substantially outside of the norm (although not a bad idea if you're looking to nova...it does reduce your "average" output though and is likely the most wasteful).  Three or four stress can max you out in a single spell (forcing consequences...which, since your conviction is likely lower you're probably not getting extra of).  Basically, you've nova'd and nearly taken yourself out in a few exchanges of casting.

Belial: Hadn't caught that.  Nice.  Still, for personal defense enchanted items are superior in most cases and at lower levels of power (where access to specialization and focus bonuses is less common or the bonuses are lower).

[WillH]

Inferrum: There is method to my madness. First assume a Conviction of four or five.  when I said put everything into control, I wasn't including skills.  If you're casting 1 stress rotes, you're still have to use your third stress box for the third spell and fourth box for the fourth spell. If you get all the power possible out of your third and fourth stress boxes in the first two exchanges the fight is much more likely to be over than it is with two one stress spells. If you still need to cast on the third exchange, you can fall back to one stress spells* that you won't need a rote to safely cast.

*Or take a minor consequence, which you shouldn't be afraid to do.

[noclue]

  Basically, you've nova'd and nearly taken yourself out in a few exchanges of casting.

Only if you're just casting that rote repeatedly

[Belial666]

@InferrumVeritas;
In caster vs caster, the wizard throws an offensive block vs magic equal to his discipline+4 at the artificer. That's easy to do; discipline+4 is hardly a problem for the wizard. For the artificer, whose items are all activated at his discipline, breaking the discipline+4 block is almost impossible. So now he can't use his items at all for one exchange - as he realises when he tries to hit back. Come the second exchange, the wizard extends the spell with 9 more shifts of power so it lasts the rest of the combat. And then he shoots the artificer to death.
Even worse is if the wizard can manage a power of 2xDiscipline+2. That is pushing it for even powerful submerged wizards but they can do it with a consequence and some stress. What they do with 12 shifts of power? They throw a Disjunction;  10-shift zonewide dispel that unravels magic. Guess what? Al of the artificer's items happen to be within the zone (he carries them), all are magical (crafting is thaumaturgy), none of them is strong enough to block that spell and all of them are 10 shifts or lower. They are all disjoined. Then the wizard can shoot the artificer to death.



That is one reason wizards should not rely solely on enchanted items if they can help it. There are several other reasons;

Grapples; a wizard can use high control to cast through most grapples. An artificer is limited to base discipline and has more trouble.
Blocks; regardless of their item power, artificers pit their attack roll (discipline) vs a block. So a 10-shift item used by discipline 5 caster may not be able to overcome a +5 block.
Thresholds; a wizard with power 8 control 8 vs a good (+3) threshold functions as power 5 control 5. An artificer with Power 10 items and superb discipline now uses them at Power 7, attack +2. So they'll barely be able to hit ghouls, let alone something bigger.
Dispellings; an artificer will not be able to quickly dispel big spells. If they have thaumaturgy, they may be able to get a dispelling ritual, but in the heat of combat that might not work.
There are ways to circumvent the above restrictions but they take lots of time and effort.


@WillH;
Your method has the reverse problems artificers have. Nobody is going to be able to bind your power, block your attacks or avoid them (though there are ways to circumvent that) but you'll not be able to use powerful blocks/veils and non-damaging effects yourself. You are also better in low power spells but weaker in extreme power spells. A Power 8, Control 8 caster vs a Power 5, Control 11 caster is on roughly equal footing. a) They both deal the same damage vs most normal defenses. (X)
b) The control master can better pierce magical blocks and hit extreme defenses. (2)
c) The balanced caster can apply sticky aspects on up to Epic defenses and normal aspects up to Legendary defenses. The control master can apply stickies up to great defenses and normals up to superb defenses. (1)
d) The balanced caster can lift a car and perform Legendary-level effects without extra stress. The Control master needs to take more stress for those mid-level feats. (1)
e) The control master can reach Legendary effects with a 4 mental hit and Legendary+6 using 1 mild and 1 moderate for a 4 mental and 3 physical hit. The balanced caster gets Legendary+3 with 4 mental hit and 3 physical hit. He gets Legendary+7 using 2 milds, 1 moderate for the same hits. Max power goes to balanced. (1)
f) The control master never takes backlash for normal-mental hit spells. (2)

[WillH]

@WillH;
Your method has the reverse problems artificers have...

Good analysis, That kind of response is exactly why I made this thread. Thanks

Personally, I give a lot of weight to points b and f. On point d, I think I've already established stress doesn't bother me. Point c is a definite weakness, but good enough for most of my purposes. Point e would be an outlier scenario for my play style, so not an issue for me.

[Belial666]

When I go pure caster at submerged, I go for the Power 10, Control 11 myself. Why sit down and calculate power/control comparisons if you can max both? 


In hindsight, that's reason #1 I always have the White Council after me. 

[Taran]

Belial said this over in the A bit frustrated thread. I didn't want to derail things there,

Cheers!

[Jack B]

When I go pure caster at submerged, I go for the Power 10, Control 11 myself. Why sit down and calculate power/control comparisons if you can max both? 

Just curious, how would you spec that out?  The only way I can think of is if you drop thaumaturgy and take three more refinements.

[Belial666]

Evocation, sponsored magic with thematic bonuses, lawbreaker 2, refinement 1 OR evocation, sponsored magic, refinement 3 OR evocation, thaumaturgy, the sight, refinement 1, Item of Power Staff that is equivalent to 3 refinements.

* The first gives you get Power 10/Control 11 for offense with the sponsored magic theme you are using (usually Kemmlerian Necromancy or Outsider Magic) by supercharging to stack bonuses, Power 8/Control 9 for non-offense. (you are using a +2 control/power offense focus, the rest from specialization, sponsored magic and lawbreaker bonuses)
* The second gives you Power 11/Control 11 for your theme/element in offense, Power 7/Control 8 in non-offense. It has a slight offense advantage, a slight defense disadvantage but no Lawbreakers. (you are using +4 offense control focus and +3 offense power focus, the rest from specialization and sponsored magic bonuses)
* The third is basically a wizard that has a +5/+1 power offense focus as an IoP, gets a +4 control offense focus from his slots, has +1 control / +2 power in specializations, and thus Evokes for his element at Power 11/ Control 11 for offense, Power 6 / Control 7 for the rest.


There are, potentially, even stronger builds if you combine evocation, sponsored magic and an item of power but that's pushing the limits of the GM's patience.