what would you rather be

[BumblingBear]

I chose god.  Can't beat a god.

I'd be the god of something really stupid and frivolous like reality tv or something too so I'd never lose power.  I'd hate myself, but never lose power.

[Tedronai]

So I'd have to go with the Wizard or shifter options - just for freewill.  Between those three a Wizard seems most versatile, so I'd go with that.  White Council or not? Wizards tend to need the protection of the accords, so I would go with Whit Council.

Richard

Eh, if you're personally qualified to sit with the 'supernatural heavyweights', you can probably swing Freeholding Lord status if you're willing to take a bit of time to set it up, which was enough to swing my vote to non-Council.  Those Council guys are just too often jackasses.  And even more often with their own membership (or potential membership) than with other supernatural 'nations'.

[zaczane]

thank you to all the people for giving me the benefit of the doubt on my spelling and grammar as a new guy to this form.  now that i read all of the replies i understand what he meant and i won't take it as an insult though at first i thought it was. also i did read the rules thanks to the one link. thank you hobbitguy for trying to help me and ill try o be better in the future.

[Richard_Chilton]

Eh, if you're personally qualified to sit with the 'supernatural heavyweights', you can probably swing Freeholding Lord status if you're willing to take a bit of time to set it up, which was enough to swing my vote to non-Council.  Those Council guys are just too often jackasses.  And even more often with their own membership (or potential membership) than with other supernatural 'nations'.

I've got a feeling that the White Council would slam any human wizard who was a heavy weight and wouldn't join them.  Slam the way they slammed Kemmler - who was clearly a heavy weight.  Senior council, a bunch of wardens, other White Council wizards acting as backup and "Bang!" - end of independent caster.  The White Council exists partly to ensure that the world's wizards don't go to toe to toe in magic battles and they can only ensure that if all the wizards are members.  I see independents who refuse to join getting hunted down as probable warlocks.

That's what Harry fears will happen to Elaine - and it would have if she hadn't thrown the tests.  But if she ever put herself on the radar and revealed that she was a powerful wizard then the White Council would certainly act against her.

As for joining the accords, all humans with powers are already the province of the White Council (which is the Wardens were able to get involved in White Night).  A wizard trying to sign on as a one off would be like the Summer Lady trying to join as a Freeholding Lord.

Of course there's the Shapeshifter that was mentioned briefly when Dresden was listing off those who signed the accords - who either isn't human or blows my theory out of the water.


Back to why I wouldn't want to be a god - gods seem bound by their natures.  They often come with built in enemies (any Norse god would get the Jotuns enemies) and they can be killed.  No, for freewill the best bet is a wizard.

Richard

[zaczane]

well i can see that lots of people like the white council wizard option which i guess it would be cool to have 82 mor refresh then even the black staff would be nice but my opinion is still the outer gate ruler just cause there could be so many powers out there that you don't even know what you could have maybe you could even have a little of any powers, cause maybe thats why the white council tries to keep the outer gate separate from earth cause back when there used to be no separation not only did the good guys have lots of power but so did the bad guys.  i'm guess that was about 4 maybe 500 years ago back before the original merlin was alive.

[Haru]

Wizard, White Council or not, but I want to be a Wizard.

I've got a feeling that the White Council would slam any human wizard who was a heavy weight and wouldn't join them.  Slam the way they slammed Kemmler - who was clearly a heavy weight.  Senior council, a bunch of wardens, other White Council wizards acting as backup and "Bang!" - end of independent caster.  The White Council exists partly to ensure that the world's wizards don't go to toe to toe in magic battles and they can only ensure that if all the wizards are members.  I see independents who refuse to join getting hunted down as probable warlocks.

I think this would mostly be a problem regarding the unseelie accords than the problem of them "just" going warlock. As far as any outsider (as in: not mortal) is concerned, mortal spellcasters fall under the jurisdiction of the white council. If a freelancer was to harm/insult/anything another signatory of the accords, the white council could be held responsible for this. And it wouldn't even have to be a warlock, just a plain old grumpy wizard would do.

Most wizards though enter the white council automatically, simply because their masters are members and they simply know no other way of being wizards (and I don't even think there is a sign-up sheet or something). To be honest, the only freelancers out there are probably going to be those that have a history similar to Elaine.

[Tedronai]

I've got a feeling that the White Council would slam any human wizard who was a heavy weight and wouldn't join them.  Slam the way they slammed Kemmler - who was clearly a heavy weight.  Senior council, a bunch of wardens, other White Council wizards acting as backup and "Bang!" - end of independent caster.  The White Council exists partly to ensure that the world's wizards don't go to toe to toe in magic battles and they can only ensure that if all the wizards are members.  I see independents who refuse to join getting hunted down as probable warlocks.

That's what Harry fears will happen to Elaine - and it would have if she hadn't thrown the tests.  But if she ever put herself on the radar and revealed that she was a powerful wizard then the White Council would certainly act against her.

As for joining the accords, all humans with powers are already the province of the White Council (which is the Wardens were able to get involved in White Night).  A wizard trying to sign on as a one off would be like the Summer Lady trying to join as a Freeholding Lord.

Of course there's the Shapeshifter that was mentioned briefly when Dresden was listing off those who signed the accords - who either isn't human or blows my theory out of the water.

There's also the Archive.  Ivy is a human, with all the knowledge and power of a clearly supernatural heavyweight wizard, plus a lot more knowledge.  She's also a Freeholding Lord under the Accords.

As for Kemmler...well...it wasn't just a matter of the Wardens, Senior Council, and a handful of others, it was everyone on the council who could be at all useful.  And he was involved in flagrant violations of the Laws of Magic.

And Elaine's situation is...complicated.  She's been presumed dead for several decades.  She was apprentice to a wizard accused (and presumed guilty) of black magic.  She personally has been accused, iirc, of having violated the laws of magic during her apprenticeship.  There is evidence that she has been purposefully evading the Wardens for years.  ...the list goes on...

[Richard_Chilton]

There's also the Archive.  Ivy is a human, with all the knowledge and power of a clearly supernatural heavyweight wizard, plus a lot more knowledge.  She's also a Freeholding Lord under the Accords.

The Archive isn't a human with power - she's the human vessel of the Archive construct.  If she was in control then there would times when she was more active, but the restrictions on the Archive restrict Ivy's actions.

Calling her human is like calling a Red Court Vampire human.  Or any of the published vampire courts.  Or saying a changeling is a human with fae powers.  She has a human body, but there's something Other in there with her and that's enough to put her in another class of thing.

As for Kemmler...well...it wasn't just a matter of the Wardens, Senior Council, and a handful of others, it was everyone on the council who could be at all useful.  And he was involved in flagrant violations of the Laws of Magic.

So what stopped him from going to Mab and demanding to be a Freehold Lord? If the bulk of the White Council was needed to take him down then had the power he needed to become a Freehold Lord and get protection from the White Council.  I'm sure the Red Court, White Court, and at least one other "feed on the humans" group would have signed his application.

My view is that he couldn't do that because the Accords assigned him to the White Council's domain.  I really can't see any Merlin to negotiating with Mab to be recognised as the chief of all the Human wizards.  Maybe he had to give some minor points (like allow Trolls to eat naughty children when they cross bridges) but any wizard who clawed his way to the Merlin spot would have made sure that no outlaw wizard could claim to be a Freehold Lord...

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong (see my speculation about the Shapeshifter).  What I've typed seems to fit the setting, but in the next book Jim might change everything around.
Again.
Or in the book after that...  More likely - he'll keep adjusting the world in all the books.  And every time he changes something it will make sense because that's the way it always worked - we just didn't know it.

Richard

[Belial666]

What stopped Kemmler from joining the Accords was that he playied with the balance of the Universe. The 5th Law is funny like that - you don't just break a Law of Magic; you violate a principle of the Universe. Which is, I am told, bad. Not to mention that Kemmler made an army of demons. The 7th Law is even worse regarding the balance of the Universe when violated.

Since Mab is one of the forces maintaining said balance, I doubt she'd approve.

[Richard_Chilton]

Does Mab approve of the Red Court and their death laced magic - magic that draw it's source from the same ones that Kemmler tapped?

Does Mab approve of the White Council, those meddling fools who stop the Winter Court from playing wicked games with the mortals?

Does Mab approve of the Order of the Blackened Denarius and their plans? Plans that seem worse than Kemmler's planned ascension?

I'd say that the answer is "no" for all those questions.

The Denarians (human with something else added to them) are protected by the Accords as they plot the downfall of man.  If Mab let them sign, then the only thing stopping Kemmler from signing would have been if the White Council had claimed all the humans with magical talent (as shown in White Night) so he couldn't.

Something like that would also stops other groups of mages from trying to join the accords - and one of the main focuses of the White Council (or at least the Merlins) seems to be to have all the talented humans in one block.  One block that doesn't fit openly among itself.  One block that can appear to act as one when the enemies of Mankind appear.   And yes, that one block now (thanks to Harry) includes the Paranet - the Paranet just doesn't know it yet.

I just can't see any Merlin signing an agreement (like the accords) that doesn't give them that.  I could be wrong about this - I don't think I am but I could be - and there's no real proof either way. 

Richard

[evileeyore]

Kemmler simply never got the chance.  He was wiped out before he could drum up enough support amongst the more "villianous" signators.  He probably built his power in secret, even when he first had the "raw potential" to get into the Accords (like Marcone eventually does), but instead hide his power and bide his time.  Sign early when you're too weak to defend yourself and any enemy that comes up with an Accord worthy reason can declare war and wooops, look at that you've declared your lands and holdings on that there treaty...  Same reason Cowl and the other "Circle" jerks are keeping themselves off the Accords (I'm presuming they aren't a multi-'species' cabal here).

[Belial666]

Also, an important point I kind of forgot to mention; Kemmler died in the 50s. The Accords were first signed in the 90s.   

[Richard_Chilton]

The Accords were renegotiated in the 90s.  After the Unseelie incursion happened they were renegotiated to close that loophole - but the first version is far older than that.

Kemmler has enough power to start WWI.  Then he was active in WWII.  He died several times.

And none of those times when the council thought him dead did get the Red Court, the White Court (who would love to have a catspaw that would hurt the White Council), and his fellow "let's bring down civilization" types in the Order of the Blackened Denarius to add his name to the accords.

I can't see Marcone doing something in the supernatural world that Kemmler didn't - unless Kemmler couldn't.

We can go on debating this - but I don't think the debate will go anywhere.  Not unless there's a WoJ on this or a book covers it.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Maybe Kemmler didn't want to sign up.

Maybe he did and the White Council killed him anyway in a totally legal war.

Maybe this has nothing to do with the thread topic and should be taken somewhere else.

Would you guys be willing to make a new thread for this debate? Because this one's been hijacked.

[Silverblaze]

Other.  In order of best to worst in my opinion.

Assuming Dragons with a capital D have free will, I choose that.

Assumingthey do not, I suppose wizard or an Immortal from Highlander!

Barring those choices a were-reptile for longevity and potential to acquire new abilities.

WCV would be a good choice...

Also, Superman or similar comic hero!