Author Topic: A bit frustrated  (Read 38509 times)

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2011, 04:47:27 PM »
To go back up to some of the advice early on in the thread, could I have Invoked for effect?  Say the first cop failed his discipline check by enough, could I have said, "well, I think he just drops his gun and decides he wants to talk".  The PC shapeshifter failed his discipline by 5 shifts, could I have compelled him to role over and have his tummy scratch?  Or would these be more appropriate for a maneuver?  Like what BumbleBear was saying earlier...I'll have to find the quote...about shenanigans...

EDIT
I would call shenanigans on a spell like that.

I think a more appropriate way to model it would have been to make an area spell maneuver with soulfire like, "Receptive"

Then make an area social attack using either intimidation or conviction to calm the fuck down, and tag your "receptive" aspect on every person in the zone you laid it on.

::shrug::

As far as law breaking goes, the Warden character might not want to have "a little chat" with the only social spec'd character in the party...he might find himself with an extreme consequence and a new outlook on life  ;)

But that would be fun to play out anyways.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 04:49:18 PM by Taran »

Offline WillH

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2011, 04:58:54 PM »
If only we had some kind of points that could be used to compel shit like this and figure out what the fictional ramifications of mind spells are in our games?

James, That wouldn't solve anything. It would be like trying to compel an aspect when there is disagreement about what the aspect means. They need to decide what the laws mean in their game, then the fate should flow.

To go back up to some of the advice early on in the thread, could I have Invoked for effect?

Like so many thing when it comes to magic, there is no one right answer. What you did is perfectly valid. So are a lot of the other suggestions.

Offline noclue

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2011, 05:23:52 PM »
James, That wouldn't solve anything. It would be like trying to compel an aspect when there is disagreement about what the aspect means. They need to decide what the laws mean in their game, then the fate should flow.

I'm thinking that this is true with regards to earning the stunt, but a compel on the Warden's high concept with or without a buy off might say a lot about how the Warden responded to the spell and how the White Council's response was going to effect things going forward.

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2011, 05:56:38 PM »
I'm think the player might self- compel. 

So here was the spirit of the spell I wanted:

the cops were panicked and acting somewhat irrationally and thus forced the PC's to act ... some more aggresively than others.  The spell was intended to remove the panicked state and instill calm rational thought.

I'm not sure I did that.  I prevented them from acting agressively, but didn't make them calm. 

Can you do social attacks with spells.  Like do a Glibness spell so the power acts as your deciet, or an elequence spell and have it act as your rapport.  The spell is affecting you and not the target, so it wouldn't break any laws, right?

As I mentionned before, I probably woudln't be able to prevent someone from telling a lie, but I might be able to enhance my ability to read someones intent?

Offline evileeyore

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2011, 06:07:28 PM »
Can you do social attacks with spells.  Like do a Glibness spell so the power acts as your deciet, or an elequence spell and have it act as your rapport.  The spell is affecting you and not the target, so it wouldn't break any laws, right?

You could certianly manuever to apply Aspects...

Beyond that and I'm afriad the discussion is moving beyond my shaky grasp of the rules.

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2011, 06:32:22 PM »
I just thought about my last comment.  It would have to fall under some category.  Evocation is all about elements, so you couldn't do social spells with evocation.  Maybe it could be justified with one of the Thaumaturgy specialties...but I'm not sure.  So it'd be more likely done with sponsored magic: Soul-fire- a missionary's ability to turn people to faith/find peacful solutions through negotiation, or (Un)Seelie magic and their ability to circumvent the truth even when they're not lying.

Offline Belial666

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2011, 10:26:14 PM »
You certainly can do social spells with Evocation; as long as it is a maneuver, block or direct attack and you can thematically justify it with your element, it's doable. Examples include but are not limited to the following; (categorized by element)

Air
Words of Power: you adapt the tone and intensity of your words to the situation by manipulating sound waves. You can speak and be heard across a room, make your voice more alluring than normal, clear away the betraying timbre of a lie or borrow a tone of speech from a famous politician. 4-shift air maneuver to apply relevant sticky aspect to yourself.
Twisted Voice: you manipulate sound waves to distort the voice of the opposition, robbing them of credibility. An intimidating adversary may find himself with a new girlish voice, a white-court seductress now croaks like a frog or, more subtly, a witness' voice might tremble with doubt, a lawyer's voice might sound condescending to the judge and jury and so on. 6-shift  air maneuver to apply relevant sticky aspect.
Silence: you may rob a target of the ability to speak to counter your words or impose silence on a room to forcibly end arguments or unwanted comments. Your targets may not like being thus silenced but barring use of their own magic or resorting to nonverbal signals, there's not much they can do. Air block vs Social actions. Strength/area depends on your power.
Unnerving Ambience: you produce ambient sounds (usually at supersonic or subsonic frequencies) that instigate fear to most mammals in the area. 6-shift air maneuver to apply sticky aspect in the area taggable/invokeable for intimidation.


Earth
Fluctuating Gravity: by manipulating gravity, you make the target's weight rapidly and constantly shift by a tiny margin, disrupting their balance and causing debilitating nausea. Being violently sick is as debilitating in a party or legal meeting as it is in combat - if not moreso - and gravity based spells are only visible to supernatural senses. Offensive Social (or physical) block, power/duration varies.
Forced Obedience: you telekinetically force the target's body to assume a simple, brief stance: forcing them to kneel, bow to you, kiss your hand or similar action that shows your superiority. In many situations this ensures your social dominance. In other situations, this might enrage your target. In some situations, this may backfire if it fails so use it wisely. Social Attack opposed by Might or Rapport, whichever is higher.
Crumble: using earth magic, you weaken a small metal, stone, wood, crystal or similar object to the point of breaking; when someone next handles it it will shatter with harmless but potentially embarassing results; a glass of wine breaking and wasting someone's clothes, a chair crumbling and depositing its occupant to the ground, a belt buckle snapping and no longer holding someone's trousers and other fun stuff to do in a party, business meeting or legal battle. 4-shift earth maneuver, applying sticky aspect to be tagged/invoked for effect.

Water
Cold Shower: you feel as if you're under a continious, really cold shower; seductive vixens, infuriating smartasses, canny smoothtongues - they all find it exceptionally hard to get the expected reaction out of you. Defensive Block vs social, power/duration varies.
Taste of Winter: you drastically lower the temperature of the gathering's formal dinner, drinks, pool or other relevant, socially-important accessory, causing the host more than a little discomfort. Alternatively, do it on a single target's accessory to disrupt their good time and social graces. 6-shift water maneuver, applying taggable aspect on object or area.
Slippery Slope: you cause someone to slip by forming a thin layer of ice in their shoes. That can be embarassing, especially at crucial moments like when giving a speech, performance or presiding over a major social event. 6-shift water maneuver, tagged/invoked for effect.

Fire
Rising Tempers: you cause the target to warm physically and emotionally by warming him up and speeding up his pulse and body - or everyone in a zone to do the same. 8-shift fire maneuver applying 2 relevant taggable (sticky) aspects on a target, 10-shift for a zone.
Searing Pain: you send a powerful shock through the target's body, similar to (but usually stronger and more refined than) a brief bout of torture via electricity. Useful for torture, intimidation, really shutting someone up, briefly disabling them or enraging them, depending on the situation and how it is used. Have fun. Block vs all actions OR intimidation attack. Power/duration varies.

Spirit
Terror: you conjure a brief but thoroughly terrifying illusion you can use to scare people. Intimidate attack. Power varies.
Strip Emotion: you deaden the target's capacity for certain emotions. The target is now much harder to seduce, infuriate or intimidate, being able to think clearly regardless of how opponents try to undermine him. Social Defensive spirit Block, power/duration varies. Using this on someone without their consent violates the 3rd Law.
Cloak of Insignificance: you impose a subtle but powerful sensory veil on the target, making everyone else ignore them, their actions and their words. The target fades into insignificance, unable to affect the social situation. Social Offensive spirit Block, power/duration varies. Using this on someone without their consent does not break any Laws as it affects the perception of others and not emotions or thoughts.
Tower of Iron Will: you butress your thoughts with magic, enforcing rigidity and resilience. You can fall back on this spell when your natural discipline is insufficient for the task. Power 8 spirit maneuver applying 2 sticky aspects taggable/invokeable for defense with Discipline or the closing-down aspect of Rapport.



You really don't want to see what non-standard elements like Death (for Kemmlerian Necromancy) or Void (for Outsider Magic) can do in social/mental combat.

Offline sinker

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2011, 01:31:45 AM »
With all of this I would say that it all depends on how you want to play things.

Regarding breaking the laws It would really depend on how everyone felt it was done. This using the power of the white god I could easily see it being a gentle and wonderful feeling of peace coming over everyone. As you stated Jack the cop could have developed some disorders had it worked out that way, however it could have just as easily been a situation where he simply dropped his gun, sure that he was safe and that no harm would come to anyone while this feeling was maintained. That's the way I would see it coming from the white god, but everyone is going to see it differently and the important thing is that your group figures out what they find the most fits their story.

As for social attacks I have two minds on this. On the one hand I could see someone casting physical spells like Belial mentioned that could be childish yet effective social attacks. Things like people slipping and falling, their clothes mysteriously shifting in embarrassing ways, inappropriate noises or odors, etc. These things could be described as either maneuvers or attacks and it would be justified either way. Mechanically however one must consider this. Social combat is one of the few arenas where everyone is on the same footing, and skills really make the difference. There are no social weapons (though there could be I suppose), nothing at all to increase the amount of social stress dealt other than the skill of the attacker. Introduce to that arena wizards capable of dealing weapon:6-10 social attacks (not to mention being the sole possessor of such ability) and it makes wizards many times more powerful. Things to consider when introducing a wizard's power to the social arena.

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2011, 03:11:08 AM »

As for social attacks I have two minds on this. On the one hand I could see someone casting physical spells like Belial mentioned that could be childish yet effective social attacks. Things like people slipping and falling, their clothes mysteriously shifting in embarrassing ways, inappropriate noises or odors, etc. These things could be described as either maneuvers or attacks and it would be justified either way. Mechanically however one must consider this. Social combat is one of the few arenas where everyone is on the same footing, and skills really make the difference. There are no social weapons (though there could be I suppose), nothing at all to increase the amount of social stress dealt other than the skill of the attacker. Introduce to that arena wizards capable of dealing weapon:6-10 social attacks (not to mention being the sole possessor of such ability) and it makes wizards many times more powerful. Things to consider when introducing a wizard's power to the social arena.

Hmm...hence the reason for the Laws of magic.  So wizards don't go around ruling the world...but is it IMPOSSIBLE.

 I admit that was the first barrier I saw to making a social attack spell.  A power x rote social spell would blow anyone out of the water, if only because it's considered a weapon x attack.  These seem harder to justify in social combat.  It seems that maneuvers and blocks are more appropriate for social combat, at least in my mind.

 Belial666's example reminds me how programmed I am from years of D&D to think things in terms of numbers.  But I'm seeing it's all about justifying and imagining the spirit of the effect, then trying to figure out how to make it work.

I want to confirm one last thing that I brought up earlier.  

If I do a zone-wide maneuver, how does tagging it work?  Do I get a free tag on everyone who failed to resist? After the initial free tag, do I have to pay a FP for each target?

Is there a difference in  tagging an aspect on a scene to affect everyone in the zone vs tagging an aspect that is on each person in the zone?  I'll use the obvious example: I cast a zone-wide darkness(an aspect on the scene) and tag for effect vs casting a blindness spell that affects everyone(an aspect on each person) in the zone and tag for effect.  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 03:14:25 AM by Taran »

Offline sinker

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2011, 03:26:04 AM »
Here's an answer that may surprise you. You can't do a zone-wide maneuver on individual targets. Look it up on YS251-253. Both attacks and blocks mention a specific way (spending an extra 2 shifts) to effect a zone. However the only way maneuvers mention is making an environmental maneuver. One could extrapolate from the others that you could spend 2 shifts to maneuver against everyone in the zone, but to be honest I don't see a reason to when you have environmental maneuvers, which effect everyone in the zone anyway and also can't be resisted by individuals.

My call on the tag-compels has a lot to do with how I look at that process. A while ago Fred described the process as the player tags for effect then the GM negotiates the compel with the FP economy handled by the GM. So the way I see it is you're tagging the environmental aspect to create a situation where that aspect is important to the story, and then the GM is compelling everyone whom that effects (possibly even you). So if you called up a fog for example then tagged it to make it hard for everyone to see in the soup then the GM would be compelling everyone who was trying to see something and couldn't.

Hmm...hence the reason for the Laws of magic.  So wizards don't go around ruling the world...but is it IMPOSSIBLE.

Edit: You'll note however that there is no law of magic preventing people from making social attacks. The second law prevents you from physically changing someone's form, the third law prevents you from looking into another's mind and the fourth prevents you from mentally compelling another. While those could hamper your ability to attack socially, there's nothing preventing you from physically causing situations that would be embarrassing or upsetting.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 03:39:20 AM by sinker »

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2011, 03:29:04 AM »
Hmm...hence the reason for the Laws of magic.  So wizards don't go around ruling the world...but is it IMPOSSIBLE.

 I admit that was the first barrier I saw to making a social attack spell.  A power x rote social spell would blow anyone out of the water, if only because it's considered a weapon x attack.  These seem harder to justify in social combat.  It seems that maneuvers and blocks are more appropriate for social combat, at least in my mind.

 Belial666's example reminds me how programmed I am from years of D&D to think things in terms of numbers.  But I'm seeing it's all about justifying and imagining the spirit of the effect, then trying to figure out how to make it work.

I want to confirm one last thing that I brought up earlier.  

If I do a zone-wide maneuver, how does tagging it work?  Do I get a free tag on everyone who failed to resist? After the initial free tag, do I have to pay a FP for each target?

Is there a difference in  tagging an aspect on a scene to affect everyone in the zone vs tagging an aspect that is on each person in the zone?  I'll use the obvious example: I cast a zone-wide darkness(an aspect on the scene) and tag for effect vs casting a blindness spell that affects everyone(an aspect on each person) in the zone and tag for effect.  

I'd rule the tags on other people to create more powerful effects than one on a scene.

The reason is because a scene is just a difficulty factor to put an aspect on.  Aspects laid on other people are usually defended against.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline noclue

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2011, 04:17:23 AM »
Edit: You'll note however that there is no law of magic preventing people from making social attacks. The second law prevents you from physically changing someone's form, the third law prevents you from looking into another's mind and the fourth prevents you from mentally compelling another. While those could hamper your ability to attack socially, there's nothing preventing you from physically causing situations that would be embarrassing or upsetting.

The nice thing there is that while the Wizard can use his earth magic to make your pants fall down in the middle of a debate, that creates an aspect that can be tagged for a benefit. It's not like that is a D8 Rote spell, Embarrassing Pants. It mirrors the source material well, Harry can do lots of things physically, but he can't really control how someone thinks, feels or behaves without triggering the whole black magic thing.

Offline sinker

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2011, 04:49:43 AM »
Consider though, that regardless of the social attack one never controls someone's response to it. Were I to de-pants someone without magic I could call it a social attack (though it would be much less subtle and reflect poorly on me in most civilized situations) and how much social stress they took would depend on their defense. Same with a magical de-pantsing. Same with any other social attack magical or otherwise. Social stress very much represents someone's composure and reputation, both of which could be affected depending on how someone dealt with the situation (I.E. how well they defended).

Really I'm not trying to argue that it should be done because of the mechanics issue. I'm just saying that I can very much see a reasonable thematic argument for it. I would just say that we could call it a house rule that we can all agree on that magic can't be used for a social attack, but as far as the RAW and thematics there's plenty of justification to allow it.

Offline noclue

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2011, 08:48:36 AM »
Oh, I'm not against magic making social attacks. I just think that directly attacking someone socially with magic, meaning dealing social stress with magic, is likely going to involve at least skirting close to law breaker for mucking with someone's mind. Manipulating the environment physically to make things difficult for them is not a direct social attack. I find it hard to see such indirect manipulations as a "social attack" as opposed to a maneuver. Hence, my example with the pants. Why would a 8 strength telekinesis pantsing do more social stress than a 3 strength telekinesis pantsing? Assuming both spells are successful, the effect is essentially the same.

To me if you want to do social stress with magic, you're going to have to do something to them. And that's going to at least involve flirting with black magicks and possibly bringing your wizard some trouble. And to me trouble is generally a good thing.

Offline Taran

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Re: A bit frustrated
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2011, 12:05:24 PM »

To me if you want to do social stress with magic, you're going to have to do something to them. And that's going to at least involve flirting with black magicks and possibly bringing your wizard some trouble. And to me trouble is generally a good thing.

So here's where I disagree...and yet don't know how to do it mechanically.  Do you HAVE to affect your target?  Can you make yourself more alluring/charismatic/convincing.

Let's say you want to lift a car.  You use a power 9 telekenisis/ or more likely biomancy spell to give yourself the effective Might of 9 which enables you to lift the car.  As stated in YS, there may be consequences to the person lifting the car...just because your strong enough, it doesn't mean your bones can handle it.

For social combat, could you give yourself the equivalent of a 9 rapport.  It spell doesn't act as an attack, it just boosts your skill making you better in social combat. What kind of consequences would this cause. My only issue with this is that a wizard can be better than anyone at any skill.