A cool house rule for throwing (sup. strength) powers.

[BumblingBear]

I had a nifty idea for a house rule.

We all know that thrown weapons are usually 1 zone, right?

I was thinking of house ruling that a "normal" character can throw 1 zone past that at -2 to the throwing skill.

If a character has supernatural strength, this would add 1 zone to the range for each +x to damage (so inhuman strength would be a total range of 4 zones) and each subsequent zone after the first would be -2 to the attack roll.

BUT, each point of refresh spent on the strength power would mitigate that attack penalty.

For instance.  A supernatural strength character would have an effective throwing distance of 5 zones, but would only be able to make throws to 3 zones at their normal attack bonus.

At 5 zones (-8 to hit anything, they would be -4 applied to their attack roll to hit anything (since the -4 refresh nixes half of that).

What do you all think?  I think it's fair and it makes sense.  A dude who can lift a bus would easily be able to throw a spear 100 meters.

The formula looks like X= skill modifier+(fudge dice roll)-(Y)

Y=[(distance of thrown object - 1)*2]-(Points of refresh in strength powers)

Where Y cannot be a negative number.

[Belial666]

Well, world-class athletes or professional spearmen can throw a spear 100 meters already and can probably throw and hit at 40 meters. That's the 2 zones range with the good arm stunt.

Supernatural strength might enable you to throw heavier objects than that or a light object a bit further but it does nothing to increase your accuracy or to counter air friction. Take a 2-kilo stone and throw it as far as you can. Then do the same with a half-kilo stone. Then do the same with a 50gr stone. You might be able to throw the lighter stones a bit further but not by as much as the weight reduction would indicate because air friction is still a factor and the momentum you impart them depends on the speed of your arm, not really its strength. And you still can't hit with any accuracy any further than you could with the first stone.

[BumblingBear]

Well, world-class athletes or professional spearmen can throw a spear 100 meters already and can probably throw and hit at 40 meters. That's the 2 zones range with the good arm stunt.

Hitting something at 40 meters is not that hard - especially if you are using an atlatl or something.

Supernatural strength might enable you to throw heavier objects than that or a light object a bit further but it does nothing to increase your accuracy or to counter air friction. Take a 2-kilo stone and throw it as far as you can. Then do the same with a half-kilo stone. Then do the same with a 50gr stone. You might be able to throw the lighter stones a bit further but not by as much as the weight reduction would indicate because air friction is still a factor and the momentum you impart them depends on the speed of your arm, not really its strength. And you still can't hit with any accuracy any further than you could with the first stone.

That's not necessarily true.

Faster bullets have a flatter trajectory.  The faster an object travels, the longer it can stay in the air in a certain trajectory before being brought to the ground by gravity.  If a character with supernatural strength could throw a rock at 300 meters per second, hitting something at 150 meters would be a lot easier.  There would be a lot less arc to the throw.

And as for cars and other large, heavy things, those are not pinpoint accuracy types of weapons.

Throwing a car vaguely in front of something or someone is still going to hit them, and with tremendous force.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's all that applicable.

Plus, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that a character who can pick up an SUV with minimal effort would only be able to throw it 1 zone away.  Especially since zones vary in size.

I'm not sure if there's an official rule about guns either, but I would use similar rules for guns.  A shot past 3 zones with a rifle, every zone past that is -1 to the attack roll.

[Tsunami]

Faster bullets have a flatter trajectory.  The faster an object travels, the longer it can stay in the air in a certain trajectory before being brought to the ground by gravity.  If a character with supernatural strength could throw a rock at 300 meters per second, hitting something at 150 meters would be a lot easier.  There would be a lot less arc to the throw.

Yet, a Strong character not necessarily moves extremely fast too.

Picture some really big, really muscled weightlifter type. He can move a lot of weight, maybe bench-press 500 pounds or something. But his musculature is not trained to move fast.

Now, give him a spear to throw.

I bet you anything, he can not throw it farther than an average Spear-Thrower athlete.
The Guy who throws spears is a lot less strong than the Weightlifter type, but his muscles are conditioned for "explosive" motion.

I think Strength provides enough of a bonus to throwing by expanding the variety and size of the weapons you can use.
And once you get to the big weapons, it really doesn't make sense to increase the range on those as well.

Strength determines What you can throw, not how far.

Now, if you wan't to increase throwing distance on the fly, do a maneuver to indicate that you're winding up your throw. If i were the GM, i'd let you set aside the +2 bonus to increase distance by 1 zone.

Plus, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that a character who can pick up an SUV with minimal effort would only be able to throw it 1 zone away.  Especially since zones vary in size.

A Normal character can pick up a stone with minimal effort. He can throw it 1 zone.
A Super-Strong character can an pick up a Car with minimal effort. He can throw it 1 zone.

Your argument would have to extend to the normal character as well, why can he throw only one zone ?

I'd say it makes sense:
If both are equally trained at throwing stuff, then the distances should be the same, which they are.
The strong guy simply can throw bigger stuff than the normal guy.
If they train to throw stuff farther, i.e. take a stunt for it, they can increase the distance.


Ok, i hope this rather unsorted jumble of random thoughts makes sense to anyone... bye bye *g*

[Belial666]

I am saying that someone who is stronger cannot necessarily throw things faster (and thus further). The lighter stone examples were for what would happen if you still threw the heavy stone but you were getting somehow much stronger. And regardless of how strong you were, you could still not make a throwing motion faster than 1/10 of a second (for the fastest people in the world) and thus the maximum speed you couuld ever give to an object you threw would be around 60 meters per second (the max final speed of your arm) or 150 miles per hour for someone with special training/skill. 60 meters per second, at optimum throwing angle of 45 degrees means the maximum throw distance in a frictionless environment is 90 meters. Of course, there are techniques to slightly increase the speed you impart to a thrown object, depending on the throwing move you use, its shape and center of mass and what friction applies and those factors can increase the throwing distance by about 20% for world-class skills.


Physics is physics. Regardless of your strength, unless you can somehow act at superhuman speeds, you cannot throw an object farther than about 100 meters, assuming perfect conditions and object balance. You need to be ten times as fast as a human to throw a spear five times farther and thirty times as fast to throw it ten times farther.

[BumblingBear]

Yet, a Strong character not necessarily moves extremely fast too.

Picture some really big, really muscled weightlifter type. He can move a lot of weight, maybe bench-press 500 pounds or something. But his musculature is not trained to move fast.

Now, give him a spear to throw.

I bet you anything, he can not throw it farther than an average Spear-Thrower athlete.
The Guy who throws spears is a lot less strong than the Weightlifter type, but his muscles are conditioned for "explosive" motion.

I'm talking about supernatural. You're talking about mundane.  It's apples and oranges.

I am saying that someone who is stronger cannot necessarily throw things faster (and thus further). The lighter stone examples were for what would happen if you still threw the heavy stone but you were getting somehow much stronger. And regardless of how strong you were, you could still not make a throwing motion faster than 1/10 of a second (for the fastest people in the world) and thus the maximum speed you couuld ever give to an object you threw would be around 60 meters per second (the max final speed of your arm) or 150 miles per hour for someone with special training/skill. 60 meters per second, at optimum throwing angle of 45 degrees means the maximum throw distance in a frictionless environment is 90 meters. Of course, there are techniques to slightly increase the speed you impart to a thrown object, depending on the throwing move you use, its shape and center of mass and what friction applies and those factors can increase the throwing distance by about 20% for world-class skills.


Physics is physics. Regardless of your strength, unless you can somehow act at superhuman speeds, you cannot throw an object farther than about 100 meters, assuming perfect conditions and object balance. You need to be ten times as fast as a human to throw a spear five times farther and thirty times as fast to throw it ten times farther.

First point:  we're debating supernatural powers that cannot be quantified with real-world examples.  Even in the books, there is a gap between things that can be done at the limits of human abilities and what can be done at supernatural abilities.

Second point:  What about a character with supernatural speed and strength?

Perhaps it would be the speed that would add range to a thrown attack.

[Belial666]

The books themselves quantify strength with real-world examples only (RL objects you can lift and RL objects you can break and RL weapon equivalents). The strength powers do not add some sort of supernatural form of strength like in superhero fiction that could do more than real strength could do; they supernaturally magnify real strength. In fact, in several occasions Dresden comments on how supernatural strength still follows the laws of physics.


Now, a character with supernatural strength and speed both, or a character with the supernatural power to impart momentum beyond what his strength would? That kind of character would certainly be able to throw things farther.

[Ala Alba]

Actually, I think the Strength line of powers implies greater muscle speed, given that they give bonuses not only to lifting/breaking but also damage from attacking. Punching something relies totally on velocity and mass, so in order to punch harder you either need to increase the mass or the velocity in the punch. While having denser muscle mass isn't out of the question, I think it's much more likely that the velocity is being increased. In other words, the explosive force that you mentioned does, in fact, increase.

So yeah, a character with the Strength line of powers should throw things faster, and thus farther.

[Tsunami]

Actually, I think the Strength line of powers implies greater muscle speed, given that they give bonuses not only to lifting/breaking but also damage from attacking. Punching something relies totally on velocity and mass, so in order to punch harder you either need to increase the mass or the velocity in the punch. While having denser muscle mass isn't out of the question, I think it's much more likely that the velocity is being increased. In other words, the explosive force that you mentioned does, in fact, increase.

So yeah, a character with the Strength line of powers should throw things faster, and thus farther.

Which, by your description: "Damage from higher speed", is already covered by the strength powers.

Just tonight we had a battle going on with one guy who had the "Good arm" Stunt that add one additional zone to throwing distance. He was able to reach all but one zone on the battlefield, there were quite a few, and that was from an peripheral zone. Had he been standing somewhere in the middle he would have reached all of them, and could have gone beyond that, if there had been any more zones. And that was one of the larges battlefields we've had so far.

Adding some kind of distance calculation to the mix complicates things unnecessarily. If you really need the increased range, pay refresh for it and be done. One refresh for one additional zone. If you have to have in in the strength power, increase their cost accordingly.

But really, how often are you called upon to throw stuff more than one or two zones... not often.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: Powers provide effects/modifiers, that's where their pricing comes from. If you want additional effects, by all means, pay refresh and tack them on.
But don't make it unnecessarily complicated. Strength should provide a range bonus ? 1 zone per refresh and be done.

I think I'm starting to repeat myself... yeah... I am. I'm tired, i should go to bed.
Anyways, my thoughts have been delivered, feel free to ignore or consider. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Strength logically has to provide greater throwing speed in order for its thrown damage bonus to make sense.

That being said, this sort of logic is not very important within a highly abstract game like this one. That goes double when magic is involved.

Like Tsunami, I'd prefer simpler rules for this. Here are two house rules that might accomplish what you want:

1. Attacking beyond your maximum range imposes a -2/zone penalty rather than being impossible.
2. Strength adds one/two zones of range to muscle-powered weaponry per level.

I'll be adding this to my list of house rules, by the way.

[BumblingBear]

Which, by your description: "Damage from higher speed", is already covered by the strength powers.

Just tonight we had a battle going on with one guy who had the "Good arm" Stunt that add one additional zone to throwing distance. He was able to reach all but one zone on the battlefield, there were quite a few, and that was from an peripheral zone. Had he been standing somewhere in the middle he would have reached all of them, and could have gone beyond that, if there had been any more zones. And that was one of the larges battlefields we've had so far.

Adding some kind of distance calculation to the mix complicates things unnecessarily. If you really need the increased range, pay refresh for it and be done. One refresh for one additional zone. If you have to have in in the strength power, increase their cost accordingly.

But really, how often are you called upon to throw stuff more than one or two zones... not often.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: Powers provide effects/modifiers, that's where their pricing comes from. If you want additional effects, by all means, pay refresh and tack them on.
But don't make it unnecessarily complicated. Strength should provide a range bonus ? 1 zone per refresh and be done.

I think I'm starting to repeat myself... yeah... I am. I'm tired, i should go to bed.
Anyways, my thoughts have been delivered, feel free to ignore or consider. 

Some of my battles will take place in like 10 square zones, if not more.

Part of the disparity of opinion in this thread may be other posters looking at this power through the prism of their game.

Additionally, if you only have 3 zones in a fight, how would this house rule even be applicable?

[BumblingBear]

Strength logically has to provide greater throwing speed in order for its thrown damage bonus to make sense.

That being said, this sort of logic is not very important within a highly abstract game like this one. That goes double when magic is involved.

Like Tsunami, I'd prefer simpler rules for this. Here are two house rules that might accomplish what you want:

1. Attacking beyond your maximum range imposes a -2/zone penalty rather than being impossible.
2. Strength adds one/two zones of range to muscle-powered weaponry per level.

I'll be adding this to my list of house rules, by the way.

I like that - it's nice and simple.  I can do the formula that I gave in my head with no problems, though.

I'm already kind of the walking rules encyclopedia and human calculator for the groups I play in anyway, so this shouldn't be an issue.

The house rule shouldn't even really crop up very often.  However, I like the idea of missing evocations or bullets possibly wounding innocent people or causing property damage (something for players to think about before firing away).

In order to describe the possible effects of a thrown car missing, I have to first quantify what kind of actual range it would have after missing.

As a last note, I think that attacking beyond a maximum zone with a gun should impose a smaller penalty.  This could be offset using fate points on aspects or rolling to make maneuvers.

A .50 BMG /should/ be able to reach out and touch someone 10 zones away imho.

[Belial666]

The range in-game is the range where you can actually hit what you aim at. Sure, the bullet from a handgun can travel half a mile or more. But without taking careful aim, can you shoot a target farther than a block or two away?


As for when you carefully aim so you can shoot/throw at something far away and still hit, there's always tagging for effect. The aspect from the aiming maneuver could be tagged for a +2 bonus not to your attack roll but to your range. Same for when you invoke - pay a Fate point to hit something really far.

[BumblingBear]

The range in-game is the range where you can actually hit what you aim at. Sure, the bullet from a handgun can travel half a mile or more. But without taking careful aim, can you shoot a target farther than a block or two away?

A skilled marksman can hit targets up to 200 yards away with a Glock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFd3kF6LHz4

The same guy can hit the gong with a 1911 as well.  Another thing to mention would be that if he were shooting at a man silhouette target, every round would have hit.

I've personally never tried to hit anything with a pistol past 100 yards, but up to 100 yards it's not that hard.  I can dump a 10 round magazine of .22 out of a Ruger MK III into a man sized target at 100 yards in about 3 seconds.  Maybe 4.

With my Sig P220, I can put every round into a man silhouette target up to 100 yards.

As for when you carefully aim so you can shoot/throw at something far away and still hit, there's always tagging for effect. The aspect from the aiming maneuver could be tagged for a +2 bonus not to your attack roll but to your range. Same for when you invoke - pay a Fate point to hit something really far.

That makes a lot of sense.

Still, even a range of 5 is not much for a rifle.  A red dot on my bullpup 5.56 rifle lets me hit man sized targets out to 300 meters fairly easily.

That's a range of at least 10 zones.

An M-4 rifle with an A-cog scope on it can hit targets out to 1000 meters fairly easily in the hands of a competent marksman.

::shrug::

[Sanctaphrax]

The length of a zone is very subjective. It seems to me that the standard zone sizes and weapon ranges are based on the chaos of combat in a cluttered urban environment. Plus, you know, a healthy level of abstraction.

Trying to use zone ranges outside of combat will give you headaches. But if you really want to let someone have the same range in and out of combat, remember that the game won't break if you give a gun functionally unlimited range. It'll just make certain fights realistically unfair.